"Where were the suicide pilots from? Where is Bin Laden from? Where is the Wahhabist philosophy that inspires these people from?" Where are almost all terrorists from? The Middle East, right? And where are the Coalition troops? The Middle East, right? It's time you started thinking of the entire area rather then specific countries. The whole place is riddled with nutcases, and with just a little more time and prodding you might have eventually arrived at that conclusion on your own. Smoker - Mainland Britain consists of England,Scotland and Wales so it is possible.Why didn't Bush and Blair sort out how to achieve democracy BEFORE invading Iraq?It could have saved up to 650,000 lives. Hmmm.....the guy who took it with his government is now the number one terrorist. Everyone who take these question with the government, hands up on american terror list, just as any anyone who shakes hands with rumsfeld in middle east, becomes a terrorist, a few years later.>>>> So are you saying they're 'regular' Muslims? Yes, let's NOT forget that there are 2 people on the flight deck on this aircraft and the co-pilot would also have had his hands full doing his part. I get so annoyed when they only ever refer to the 'Hero Pilot'. It is remarkable that there were no casualties and for this we must all be very thankful. On a different tack, I can just see the lawyers rubbing their hands in glee for the broken finger nail damages etc. Watch this space for the law suits.........guaranteed He's a religious fanatic which is worse than your average cretin. I'll cancel those binoculars I ordered. cheddi On what grounds should Israel give up its jewish status just to make the arabs happy. Do you think that if jews said we want to all live in Saudi Arabia so we want it to change its stauts as a muslim state and become a democratic one for all after all the jews are living in the same part of the world are they not Just because your naighbor wants something and is using violence to try and get it you should change your national identity to keep the enemy happy either the enemy is willing to accept reality using diplomacy or they want to use violence so you use violence back and crush them but you dont just say I give up I am going to give up my identity so you can be happy. The arabs can give up terror, accept the only option avalible is 2 states BASED ( not exactly ) on the 1949 ceacefire borders but if they use terror they dont get 2 states and they dont get Israel to agree to give up its status as a jewish state. No organistion like the UN or country US included can make Israel change its stauts its never going to be anything but an arab fantasy ==================================== ** Do you think one of those radioactive Martian rocks might strike you in your garden as you frolic with your poochies? Now, that would be a terrible loss for the world, and what on earth would your poochies do? Have you made a will to establish for their care after your passing Bertie? Just seen on tv the results of the latest drone missile strike on "tribesmen". It included some stretcher cases being taken into a hospital. Its very interesting to look at the footwear of those on the stretchers. Combat boots? Arafat launched the intifada? All this youngster´s on the streets, brainwashed and "launched" by Arafat? Isn´t it possible that many palestinians´s did not get their share of "peace and security" and therefore decided to protest against that without permission from Arafat? I'm surprised that they found things better in Spain and the UK, but there we go . David, as you know, Zidane has faced enormous and shameful levels of bigotry in France. "The Nazi's didn't even want Jews as a workforce ... during a war. They wanted ALL Jews dead. Quite frankly I doubt you've ever been to the South because your comments show a lot of ignorance about the region. Now if a white person brutally murders a person of any race in any state in the South they are prosecuted and usually sentenced to death" Not usually by any means the number of blacks as opposed to whites sentenced to death even for the same crimes is disproportionate. Whenever a shortcomingof the US is ever pointed out its appeasers and defenders always try and justify it by some idiotic reference to conditions in Kazakhstan or outer Mongolia, as if that is the moral compass. And of course Kazahkstan etc do not claim to be paradises of tolerance and human rights. In this case the fact the pupil felt he had to ask permission to sit under a certain tree in his own country is appalling enough. One wonders what similar incidents go unreported. One remembers that wounded black female soldier who openly wondered why her own combat story was soemhow less interesting then the very white Jessica Lynch. It is also legitimate to ask if other symbols had been hung on the tree would they have equally been dismissed as a "prank". >But to charge that black victims were deliberately ignored just shows ignorance of the true issues and facts.< That is what most blacks are saying. But of course, whitey knows best in how your N(word) feel and think. Oh how times haven't changed. Sarah, Bush is doing what he does ´cos: 1) Oil, nothing new there 2) Ego, he thinks - like his mum - that he is teh "choosen" one Russia, China will never go to war with Iran; Russia because it doesn´t - opposite to the US - want to play a dominate role in the ME; China; well their old-fashioned; if they need oil, they just pay for it. and from the previous week. Again - it is 'funny' that the only time the mods bother to close such threads is when I begin a counter thread on Islamic terror......evidenced by the fact that I could still post here. Dont worry mods - I am going to bother to retrieve more of Albert's spam. The point has been made. The poem is clearly similar sentiments to those held by jingly. he after all did say that tens of thousands of dead Palestinians wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Sick & twisted, Boy I wish this board was un modderated. I think the former British Ambassador to the US was probably close to the mark when he said Blair was almost drunk with the adulation he recieved in America and his ego was thoroughly massaged. And like all politicians they are obsessed with their so called legacy. He's got his alright. So which is it?! Democracy or dictatorships or both?! ----------- Both for different reasons. maybe they did, maybe they didn't quite frankly in the face of the mass aggression of the IDF, defacating in palestinian homes, using children as human sheilds, the blatant use of WP as a weapon, Rabbi's telling soldiers they are fighting for god, admitting orders to shooting innocents,orthodox Jews, amongst others watching the destruction from the "hill of shame", cheering the kiling of innocents, I think you, *Rosie* should hang your little confused flag waving brain out to dry. That does not excuse the murder of women and children by Chemical Weapons. Don't forget that Iraq started the war by invading Kuwait and taking people hostage to use as human shields. The Scots took a bribe to join with England. They valued money over their independence. Practical and pragmatic. //So now, like Muslims, I get accused of moral torpor for failing to state the bleeding obvious.// Well, it would be nice, once in a while, if the obvious were stated. Nice identification sense of victimhood, though. //You have no right to presume that I have no sympathy or concern for victims of rape or sexual assault.// //Well I'm not going to say it. // Why, does it require the qualification that other cultures might hold a different view and that we should temper our horror with understanding? wendy as one who condones terrorist acts aropund the world with the flimsiest of excuses about it all being the fault of america, perhaps you could explain to us all why there are now terrorist acxts in india has it become the newest of the united states, without telling anyone is that why terrorists have acted within its boundaries The United States and Germany each played host to Mohammed Atta. In fact, in the US he enrolled in a military college (Thompson, HarperCollins, 2004) as did many of his colleagues. Britain had allowed Haroon Rashid Aswat to travel undeterred, and even after it was discovered that he had exchanged phone calls with Mohammed Sidique Khan prior to 7/7, after then moving onto South Africa. Should these aforementioned countries also experience aerial attacks for allowing these terrorists free movement? Its true. You are an especially vicious person. oh yes it is you ignorant fool. How about ignoring them because the president of Argentina is not a crazy religious nutcase, and Argentina, unlike Iran, is an ally of the US? Tony, sometimes I wonder if you're a few fruitcakes short of a Lib-Dem party conference! There doesn't seem to be anything to disagree with unless I can be bothered to do research of my own. The figures about ricketts are interesting, I believe the problem is that there is hardly any vitamin D in a diet from the sub-continent, the inhabitants getting all they need from the sunlight. Consequently if you do not adjust your diet accordingly you will suffer. All the conclusions drawn from the information are surely hypothetical and I am afraid I cannot really be @rsed to get involved in nit-picking about the conclusions. Suicide rates among US soldiers are heading for a record high.Eighty-nine suicides were confirmed in 2007.Army suicide rates have risen coinciding with the US-led military action in Iraq and Afghanistan. Spending a lot of time in stressful war zones is not good for mental health. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/... I thought there wouldn't be any more Starwars sequels or pre-quels. Lol. How about instead of Starwars, we just do Starbucks? Oh wait, that's already done. Oh well that's the best way. Get the troops that saved your neck close to children and blow them ALL up. Of course you could make the children suicide bombers like they did in Israel. Sort of kill two birds with stone because you could still blame the Americans. Yep. I'm convinced Islam is a religion of peace. A long peace for anybody who they don't like. And why shouldn't they scream blue murder? when you see jacka$$es like Bush spew out invectives about US being a shining light for freedom across the globe and then falls way short of those ideals, shouldn't people speak up? You obviously wont. The irony of it all is that whilst the west looks to impose democracy on the East by bringing it out from its draconian measues and social systems, it itself is pushing through legislation which is considered draconian and is vehemently opposed by all human rights and freedom of speech groups. Somebody obviously seems to have come to a conclusion that there is only one system of social administration that is acceptable and that the both east and west arent there yet. Surely the land and its people should have the right to decide what laws they wish to govern their land by and if so let the Muslims lands follow shariah law and let America follow democracy. Why the constant to force others to do how you want them to behave. and can the Anti-Islamists please not jump on this and say that it is the Muslims who impose themselves on the west as we that response is getting ridiculous. hey - I thought you were on the side of the Sunni supereamists - the ones that also want to wipe the shia off the face of the earth. How come you are popping up here defending the mad leader of Iran? Is it in the hope that he will lead his innocent people into destruction? As long as the cigar man clinton does not get the slot. Not that Mr.Annon has any intention of stepping down. they don't have the mental stamina to play a game over five days, or the alcohol tolerance to sit and watch for so long whilst drinking continuously The report has not been released yet, so I wonder if you know if you need to attack it yet?.. hitler you claim loathed it though it served his needs in the vatican but we have to accept plenty of christians joined hitler in his 'crusade' and we should not forget the jewish collaborators. "fripono You really havn't got a clue, have you, azania? Hitler loathed the Christian Church. It was tolerated, as long as clergy toed the national socialist party line. Any clergy (such as the courageous Bonhoeffer) who criticised Nazism were persecuted. A great many were executed." Interesting that it is the ex-pat vote that will probably turn this one around. Are they all Berlusconi refugees (possibly - I'd have got out as quick as I could out of sheer embarrassment) or are they the sort who couldn't care less what sort of chaos the old country goes through once they have pulled their own ladder up? Give it time. Is the Brown Recluse in Europe? Now that is a nasty little spider. Not sure which is worse the poison it has that can eat away your flesh or a plain killing poison of the widow. Both can outright cause death, but that flesh eating property of the recluse... ugg. Was there any other evidence other than his confession? The report doesn't make it clear. Again with the paternalism. Venezuelans, cute little beach combing, coffee drinking, mango eating people that they are just cannot make decisions like launching a coup without the serious leadership from the US. There is absolutely no proof the US was involved in the very poorly organized coup. Chavez spouts on about it to distract the world from the fact he is slowly tearing down every vestige of democracy in that oil rich nation. "I don't think you got my point Grant, the Japanese people who are still alive and who remember the nuclear bomb which was dropped, actually are worried about the US not Iran." For all that some Japanese still resent (probably justifiably) the actions of the US at the end of the second world war, I'm not sure there is widespread (if any) worry about the US militarily at the moment (for obvious reasons). There are worries about North Korea and to a certai extent Russia, but I'd be interested to hear where you got the idea that they are worried about the US? yep the whole world is going down the pan The story illustrates the futility of paying ransomes for kidnappings, as it only encourages more Listen to the Talibans response to a previous deal Fair enough. I think the BBC wanted an actual debate, with real facts and stuff, but that's OK. If the idea is just to make up the most vicious racial and religious hatred, then lets go for it. I'll start. Could one of the scholars of Arabic culture on the board explain to the rest of us what the old Arab proverb "A woman for duty, a boy for pleasure, a melon for ecstasy" means? Is it based on something in Koran? Answer me why was it allowed to happen? How come "the allies" as you call them have not been vocal? I haven't seen Bliar on TV talking about this torture that has been going on uder their watch. I haven't heard the "cretin" rail against it either. Why the deafening silence? It shows the duplicity of "the allies". Who would the "usual subjects" be then? What name calling? Both sides are totally out of control. We need a de-militarised zone controlled by the UN. Israel is now an aperthied state with pass laws and Palestine is in the hands of Islamofascists, it's a total mess. France didn't become the 4th largest economy on Earth by playing fair! Sunnis and Shias can't even live in peace in a one nation Iraq!!! You can here them in the Vatican going, "See I told you So! And you wanted Birth Control!" I do not see how a single poor lawyer in a nation of 296 million people can effectively discredit its entire legal system. You do not even say how the judge and the jury in this case reacted to the statement. Wendyman Oh I see. So if I put a sword to your head and ask you if you'd like to either convert or have your head chopped off you'd be making a free choice? Thanx for making that clear. I think we can all agree that it is Israel and it's supporters who have a problem with the facts, as we have all seen on these MB's. And rejecting terroism does not upset me at all. I think we all should, where ever it comes from. However., what I find rather ironic is this same person would have been called a terrorist by that same Judafacist mouth piece, only last week. But today, he is some they can use for thier propaganda. the joint-authors of that recent paper that criticised Israel, they couldnt find a publisher in USA for their paper. Had to use a British publisher. The big donator of the Belfer chair (one of the professors chairs) is an American Jew who ran Exxon or whatever. He has phoned to insist no publicity with his uni position is used in the promotion of the paper. Really odd. I'm sure he/she/it slipped up a while back and said they were in Pakistan. Do we know what part of Scandanavia it is? O true believers, contract not an intimate friendship with any besides yourselves: they will not fail to corrupt you. They wish for that which may cause you to perish: their hatred hath already appeared from out of their mouths; but what their breasts conceal is yet more inveterate. We have already shown you signs of their ill will towards you, if ye understand." (The Family of Imran - verse 118)." Look around you, whichever muslim country contact the west, it is doomed... Their wish to is that muslims just perish.....Its so ovbious......the signs were shown and the signs are still shown... "He will be blaming him for the death of the dinosaurs next." You mean the dinosaurs are dead, all of them ? Cheney probably shot them. in the fifties and installed the puppet shah with help of stormin normans daddy...schwartskopf senior. cia and sis inspired "communist" infiltrators financed by britain and usa were used as an excuse to depose the democratic govt of mossadeq has the time come for the west to resort to similar tactics.? would they succeed today? will israel be used by the west to deliver the hammer blow to irans nuclear plans? sfc so many questions..bird flu as well.... I believe he's on his way to Washington for a chat before heading to Barbados for a well earned rest. Hopefully he might have a word with Dubya concerning the use of Prestwick Airport as a stop off for Israel-bound weapons. It doesn't really send the right message when a country can provide both humanitarian aid for the Lebanese people, and a resting point for the bombs that will probably blast them into next year. Hillary has a long history of supporting women and children's rights. She has a long history of supporting a woman's right to choose. She has been a longtime advocate of universal healthcare and has a longtime committment to civil rights. I think these things are illustrative of some inner convictions. As for Obama, i'm not sure we really know enough about him yet. He does seem dedicated to public service however, giving up the chance to work on wall street to community organize in Chicago. He's also been consistently pro-choice, pro-gay rights. Mitt Romney changed his views on gay rights, abortion, gun control and immigration just in time to run for the Republican nomination. All politicians change from time to time, evolve their positions and take account of changing circumstances. However the sheer brazeness of Romney's flip flopping was something to behold. Very true itstoppedraining. But I guess you would not remove their right to choose, just because they made a choice you didn't like? Andy Mind you that was 'cos they all fancied you. "See how well we're getting on and all you had to do was remove your army from my country! A lesson there I think" Whatever country you are in... Im sure China will rush to your side should you ever need assistance. Same with food and medicine. Dont forget we are stopping all aid too, in this little scenario. Yes. That baffles me, too. I can only suppose it's something personal - between the USA and Castro. Seems a bit petty. 'It's all very well sitting in a comfortable middle class existence in Surbiton and criticizing the slow extinction of what is actually a competitor with human beings' A very narrow view. Ecosystem health is the sign of a healthy plant. Life is more than a utilitarian batttle for survival. "I like a good scrap as much as anybody but I'm damned if I want my country to be your bitch, so i suggest you go it alone on a few wars and see how it goes while we save a few quid for a change. You owe us a lot of blood and I'm not too worried about you paying up". Well you've got your chance to go it alone against the Iranians, Big OB, but my feeling is you'll continue the 'diplomacy' angle until the Americans take charge. The Americans owe you a lot of blood?? You must be another one of those goofy brits born after 1970 who have never heard of World Wars l or ll, or the hundreds of thousands of Americans buried in European graves. For years Europeans have been whining about the Americans claiming they won these wars exclusively, a lie but who cares. Now the Europeans are in one minor skirmish, with the Americans forming the major thrust, and they're already crying about "You owe us a lot of blood". What a bunch of immature babies you've become. The women over there have more balls than you, and the Iranians certainly know it. I think Kasparov was done.But it was only a matter of time before computers win.They will take over the world some day.I'm off to the moon when that happens . Its only logical that diplomats should have imunity they are after all not there as individuals they are their to represent their countries government how can you expect politcal business to take place if the diplomats are scared to go to meetings abroad your going to limit diplomacy to the telephone. Diplomats are already exempt from customs checks, their lugage cannot be searched, they can carry weapons or have armed gaurds so they are not like ordinary individuals. What would happen if somebody in maybe France or Russia managed to get a judge to issue a warrnet for the arrest of Bush and Blair because they belived that what happened in Iraq was war crimes what would happen 2 of the most powerfull men in the world couldnt go to France or Russia to discuss diplomatic business Private individuals fine issue warents and they can be arrested no get out clause but if your talking about diplomats your getting inton dangerous territory. 'A Hamas minefield! Can you prove that it was an Israeli miss or that there was any intention to murder anyone?' Rubbu ish the BBC were there and they incident was reported extensively and investigated by the UN.++++++ BIG DEAL!!!! Now, did the BBC say that it was an Israeli missile that killed people on the beach? No! All they reported was that it was a claim by the Palestinians and refuted by Israel. Same thing with UN. In fact UN did NOT investigate it. It was a Human Rights activist. You can't even get basic facts right!!! I am not sure I can believe any of your claims. "Last time I looked in Gaza water is still being redirected away from Palestinian territories"+++++ Last time we all looked at the photos of Lauren Booth in Gaza we saw the moist amazing, well-watered lush, green, abundant gardens. Where did that water come from again? <<<<Does oil mix with water even though you stir them continously>>>> Oh yeah, the racist BNP type analogies start coming out now. Whats next? "Is a dog born in a stable, a horse?" blah blah blah... Probably by annexing a large chunk of the West Bank and redesignating most of Jerusalem as a Jewish city and evicting the Arabs from those districts. Would any sensible Arab trust the present Israeli leadership? Not at all. Read my previous posts in this thread to see at what I was actually alluding. Who said the war was about oil? The lonney-left, not Bush. Who said that it was fought in the name of Christianity? The looney-left, not Bush. Etc, etc, etc. As a Photographer I'm very much aware that most images in the media have been paid for. Is it known if NBC are taking payment from Printed media and TV companies for the video and photos? About the emigration of Jewish people from Europe to British mandated Palestine after WW2. It was British policy to restrict that emigration, and some 49 ships carrying 66,000 Jewish people were boarded by the Royal Navy, and the passengers taken to internment camps on Cyprus. www.britains-smallwa... Grant, The point is I haven't had an answer. You declined to talk about the Spanish civil war when I hadn't even asked you to. I asked you to comment on the US entering into a military alliance with fascist Spain in the early 50s. In fact in summarising our debate over Mc Carthyism it is clear that your argument is hypocritical and full of holes. You've made a statement along the lines of, 'we should be vigilant against fascism and communism'. Well the US govt. certainly wasn't. I've already pointed that the the US admin. worked with fascists in Greece, Italy and Spain(as well as a host of murderous dictatorial regimes across the globe). Yet you build an argument around the need to protect 'freedom'. This is utterly hypocritical. The US , during the Mc Carthy period was hounding people they believed were communists, or used to be, or knew somebody who was, or thought they knew somebody or was etc etc. all in the name of 'freedom'. But who were the kind of people being hounded? I would never join the CP but am more than aware of how many of their members have rallied to progressiove causes. In Britain who was it who stood in the front line when the British Union of Fascists tried to drive out the Jews? The CP. And who was it who fought against and suffered under the Nazis in Germany? And what would Nelson Mandela say? Imprisoned for 27 years, who was it in the front line against the vile Apartheid regime? The CP. Whilst the US on the other hand were happy to work with the regime in the military conflict in Angola. The truth is Mc Carthyism has nothing to do with preventing mass murder by Stalinism and everything to do with denying freedom in the US itself. You say you are for trade union freedom but Mc Carthyism amounted to hounding union officials out of jobs and sacking people for not signing 'loyalty oaths'. The kind of unionism you favour is compliant unionism , the tame variety that does fight for members interests. This is what Mc Carthyism was all about. Talking about freedom whilst dealing with fascists. Hounding people who the most likely to rally for freedom of black people in the USA and South Africa. A final point about Islam. Again you spout hypocrisy on this issue. For years the US has used Saudi Arabia as a client state in its dealings in the oil rich Middle East. Yet this alliance has spawned the likes of Bin Laden , the irony is presumably lost on you. So let's have no more of this hypocritical posturing on the need to fight for freedom. Sorry, I meant Septmeber 11th. Then the Bali attacks were on October 12th. Can't see a pattern?! I'll spell it out for you 1 year later 1 month later 1 day later The people are not interested in education? That's what I would expect someone who 'thinks' a religion is a substitute for an 'education' would say. It is not, and it never has been. This is an identity that your country hasn't even been able to deduce for itself, so again colonelartist, you are just over projecting too. Let's just assume you are right, and these poor little country bumpkins have no ambitions in life beyond their stations as peasants (abhorrent and wrong - but an assumption none the less). This is dear to you, the thought of simplicity, the thought of 'nothing do.....ing', and the thought of not having opportunities presented and within arms reach of people. You would force them onto this path, you would keep them on it, warning them of the dangers that await them should they be tempted by Satan and all his devices (like I said, religion isn't an education). FINE! Have it your way. But we'll STILL build that road. We'll STILL build that school, and we'll STILL pipe in that water and deliver sanitation. And when it's within arms reach - they'll take that road whether you like it or not colonelartist. You did, and you probably rail at that personal choice you made in your live (feeling it's a dishonour to your simple view of Islam). But don't presume that others share your spirits or tempers. Quite simply - you can't stop it. More and More and More Educated Women are coming to wider Islam, and More and More and More of them will be offered the chances to stop acting like the "oppressed". And when those coins begin to drop everywhere, the grip of religious extremism is loosened never to return to total control and domination, which is all it's really concerned about anyway. Your sense 'norm' is well understood by us, and the thing about it - it's old, it's out of date, it's retiring. I'll give it 50 years max. Say bye, bye now.... Russia is courting the ME Governments with the idea of forming a Natural Gas Cartel , similar to OPEC. "European Union leaders have said they would stand against any effort by Russia to create such a cartel, fearing gas prices — and Russia's political clout — could rise dramatically as a result. Europe gets 44 percent of its natural gas imports from Russia." www.msnbc.msn.com/id... With Russia already supplying Nuclear Technology / Arms to Iran and others in the ME could this be 'the deal with the Devil" that Putin is looking for. Control of Natural Gas would cripple Europe. Everything is the fault of "The West" and America according to some. Saddam is in power committing mass geoncide - the wests fault Saddam is removed from power and Muslims start killing each other in widespread sectarian violence - the wests fault Can't the Islamic world do anything for themselves? ------------------------------------------------- Everything is the west faults, you are right. Mass genocide? which mass genocides? All that he was hanged for was killing of 148 shias....the rest is all a myth....Since he wasnt put on trial for those so called mass genocides....Maybe the west realised that they didnt after all have any evidence, or the evidence they had for those so called mass genocide was as wrong as the evidece of WMD.....you are left with speculations now, and speculations are just speculations....And the benefit of the doubt goes to Sadam since unlike his invaders he didnt lie..... How dare we vote for them! I mean, what kind of countries are these? Democracies? Perhaps we should all vote for who the left tells us to! Johnny M and GavinUK2, Perhaps you could explain a couple of points. If Nazism was socialist why was Hitler financed by capitalists and why was pre-Hitler Germany characterised by battles between Nazis and Communists? And why were socialists and communists rounded up by Hitler, thereby becoming his first victims? And why did Stalin attempt to annhialate any Bolshevik who participated in the 1917 revolution? In other words why was the Stalinist model , later copied by other states, built upon brutal repression of socialists? PS. Have noted two long contributions, FEC and Gavin, will try to read later. "not nearly as likely in the UK as the U.S.," According to you, you still HAVEN'T posted those percentages. Now you are comparing all crimes, again with no figures cited. Shy Talk - And so you thought <<"Arab denoted race and "Palestinians" denoted nationality. Sorry they are Arabs and not yet a nation. //What do you know about Dresden?// It may have been unecessary as the war was more or less won.There is no equivalence here as the Palestinians are still fighting for their survival. Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:39 GMT, in reply to RittaQ in message 35 My mistake I should have typed relaunch. Falkenburg thanks sounds like a good idea. << When you talk about the Jews having been 'kicked out' of Israel, are you talking about ancient history? Because it is mad! Before the Jews were there, somebody else was there and so on, back into the mists of time.>> These people who were there before the Jews , who were they ? , where are they now ?.And what evidence do can you adduce to support the claims of whosoever you bring forward in support of your argument ?. << Once again, do you have the same theories about every piece of land? Who is the true owner of England; Saxon? Dane? Celt? (This is very bad news for most of the people who think they are citizens of a country like the USA) >> What are my 'theories about every piece of land ' ?. I am talking about People. People have connections with with geographic regions. << I thought you were saying that as long as you could keep Palestinians off their land until the first generation were all dead then that would make their dispossession acceptable. I do not think that is the right way to treat anyone; Armenian, Jew or Palestinian.>> It would help if you read what I actually wrote and then consequent upon digestion thereof you responded with your opinion. I pointed out that MOST 'Palestinians' who were alive in 1947 are now no longer alive. Even if they were born in 1947 they would now be 61. The vast majority of the Palestinians were born post 1947. This is a simple fact. So now , on what basis do you advance the notion that they have the right to go and live in the State of Israel ?. Pay close attention to the last three words. State of Israel. Nine Syllables.Concatenate . Aspirate.Appreciate. << First of all nowhere did I say that if you can displace 'a population' for long enough then it does not matter , and I challenge you to either point where i said as much or withdrw that remark.. >> You then go on to quote two paragraphs from my previous post that do not in any way substantiate or even speak to the idea that 'it does not matter'. In fact if you go back and read my posts you will find that I am sympathetic to Palestinian aspirations towards Statehood. << I do not know why I am finding it so hard to explain that I find all this talk of who is or isn't a 'people' both absurd and sinister. We should treat people as individuals - when considering the right way to treat a fellow British person is I do not first need to find out if they are a Jew! Similarly, states have a duty to displaced persons; their 'people' is irrelevant. >> And I on the other hand am quite astonished at your 'difficulty'.It seem to me that you are taking great pains to deny the existence of the fundamental anthropological imperative to form cultures. Yes of course we should and do treat people as individuals.But your next statement is at once problematic yet informative. And belies a smidgeon of arrogance on your part. You have a world view.It is your world view.If you do NOT consider the individual as he has SELF DEFINED himself you have abrogated to ourself the right to impose a world view upon him because without consideration to the way he has self defined himself all mutual interaction has to be based upon your world view. I love pork crackling. They are cheap and the after taste hangs around for longer than a packet of crisps .I always have some on me.I never offer them to my son's Somali team-mate. And condiderate Englishmen don't indulge in conversations centred around the derring-do of British bomber pilots in front of Germans. I would hope that you transact with other people with a bit more sensitivity. << So your difference with the BNP is that they are interested in 'race' and you are interested in something called 'self-identity' >> I am not 'interested' in self identity. It exists.It is. << Actually, the mainstream BNP tend to use your approach these days. They deny their dislike of immigrants is about racism - it is all about 'shared values' and 'Britishness'. >> The BNP can use whatever disengenous 'approach' they like to camouflage the fact that their ideals are racist. However 'shared values' and 'Britishness' are quite correctly mainstream concepts and are incorporated into both Labour and Conservative party policies. << No, it's not up to them. It is up to all of us to fight against that sort of behaviour.>. Again , you arrogant slip is showing. On what basis do you abrogate to yourself the right to decide how others view themselves , their history , their heritage , their norms and who others wish or do not wish to associate with. I am quite franjly astonished at your arrogance. Would you then take issue with Nelson Mandela then when he offered Afrikaaners the option of constitutionally negotiating for an Afrikaaner homeland. ? << You are free to associate for your mutual benefit but only up to the point where it infringes on the rights of other groups to equal treatment. Do I really need to tell you this? >> No what you do need to do is explain yourself. Freedom of association is just that.Freedom of Association. Hotmousemat I really think that you need to step back and think about all of the contradictions in your arguments. Just by way of example :-- 1. You tell me that you have great difficulty in underestanding the notion of 'a people'.2. Then in one of your other posts , unrelated to our discussion , you write "<< But when we see A PEOPLE behaving in a way that seems unreasonable it is as well to try to understand how it may seem from their point of view. >> ( My caps ). So maybe your 'difficulty is a contrived 'difficulty'. No ?. Quite right jLA watch, another fun-filled rant. /////They won't also stand for human rights either.//// Likud DO stand for the rights of humans. ////They stand for the rule of force - a policy that has failed Israel ever since its foundation - as it has generally failed every other country which has tried it//// You'll be rooting for Likud because you would like Israel to fail. Have you ever thought about reading a post and thinking about it before responding? That's why Bush's 'war on terror' is barmy.Anyone he doesn't like is branded a 'terrorist' or 'terrorist sympathiser'.Condaleeza Rice has been saying some nutty things about Hugo Chavez (Venezuela) recently. Somehow I doubt it. I doubt these people could read Russian or Hebrew, let alone Arabic. They're not going to get any help from Hamas, not least because by the nazi definition, whether they like it or not, they are Jewish themselves. Mondial, the tragedy of Iraq is that the majority of the killing of people is done by fellow Iraqis, not the US/UK occupiers. Much was made of the shock and awe bombing campaign. However, this was not WWII style carpet bombing of cities with hundreds of planes. Precision bombing of military targets means vast blocks of cities aren't taken out just to hit one target. Fellow Iraqis are bombing markets, football celebrations, mosques, etc., all deliberate civilian killing. Please don't believe I supported this invasion for one minute. It was a disaster and unnecessary from the beginning. With that said, Iraq pales in comparison to the 'genocide' in Sudan. Is it that the US/UK are involved that makes it worse to some? I don't see how one or two bombs used selectively is any worse than the 20 million killed each by Stalin or Mao. Then there's the killing fields of Cambodia, Rwanda in the 90s, etc. The Holocaust is a tragedy. The statistics show that approx 6 million were murdered. I'm sorry if this confuses you. India is the most fanatically religious country in the whole world. Religion oozes out of every nook and corner of india, and I am not talking about the cows that roam around freedly in the streets. How can justice be served?>>>> It already has been served. People who participate in this kind of barbarity are sub human, and will never know the joys of those who have evolved. Every day they wake up in the same twisted & perverse reality. The obvious answer of how to prevent them from imposing their insanity on to others, is to lock them away. To nighthook - Sorry to tell you that if you cannot read, then it be not I to teach you.The discovery was not of //a few plants//[!!!] but of a most interesting scientific discovery of some ancient invertebrate sea creatures.... and as Britan's NAFTHE Institute has decided to BOYCOTT Israeli Universities and educational academies, then it would be justified that NAFTHE be exempt from sharing in any further knowledge relating to this hugely interesting scientific discovery - the Boycott by NAFTHE having been influenced by the Palestinians themselves.....! And all that from those who in the 1960's , 1970's demonstrated calling for military intervention against what was then called " The Evil Whites" of Rhodesia. Did they not warn Britain and the world what would happen if Mugabe and his cronies were in power. After what has happened recently, they were bloody stupid to do what they did! They should have respected the laws of the land! Agreed, Clinton, way too much baggage and a husband with direct link to the white house, very odd dynamic. er, no but you always assume colonel that you know what people are, you have been bleating for months about how I am British which I'm not so dont assume things which you cant tell... "what planet are you on?????? you dont count the umproviked rocket attacks by hammas on israel as breaking the ceasefire then??? thats ok in your eyes,israel had approx 6 months of this before they did something. so tell us again who broke the ceasefire" Read this and then apologize and admit you were wrong and uninformed. www.guardian.co.uk/c... Well as you've run away from actually arguing your case and have replaced it with stock insults it is getting very easy for us. No wonder you regard John Wayne as a hero, he must seem a towering intellectual to you and Granty. Agreed. Consolidation in a shrinking market generally is the best way to go. Therein lies the problem for both Stella and Bud. In Europe, the traditional ales are rebounding. In the US, local upstarts making product sometimes near as good as their European counterparts have been steadily grabbing market share from the big brewers. They will not go away altogether. But in the future they will not be what they were. simcha2 - Millions of people died in a terrifying manner and many others survived terrifying ordeals other than jews in WW2.The Russians lost 20m in all.What do you think it must have been like for the survivors of attacks like Nagasaki or Hiroshima?Anyway even Irving is not denying the Holocaust any more.He agrees millions died. The really surprising thing about this story is that isn't that surprising. We've all known for a long time now that Bush repeatedly lied/misled/twisted the truth whatever you want to call it. I'd say this was the final nail in the coffin of Bush's reputation but that nail went in a long time ago. Mistress You have Muslim neighbours. I find that very hard to believe. How do you manage to live there? No one finds the sight of a woman vulgar unless you are trying to tell us something about yourself. It wouldn't surpirse me because you come across as a vulgar and vile woman anyway. Muslims love women and treat them with the respect that they deserve. Something you obviously would know nothing about. "Isn't it a petty thing to have a go at him for?" Perhaps. But i wouldn't set myself up by trying to defend him either. When someone enjoys the sound of their own voice as much as does BHO, odds are there'll be the occasional self important silliness. Best we laugh at this guy now rather than have foreign leaders laughing at him later. I know you want us to be gentle on him but why? This is quite probably the most important job in the world and you want to give him a pass? Hey zabacs, >>Yeah, thats what I thought regarding Muslim world. I mean, Western Europe, sorry for mis-spelling.<< No need to apologise Zabacs, it is an understandable mistake to make, and the worst you can be accused of is forward thinking. >>Yet, property could do fine around here. No Muslims around, and, if EU breaks down before blood in streets in Muslim-controlled EuArabia countries...<< What do you think will happen to Eastern Europe when western Europe collapses into another of the long nights of bloodletting that it so loves? I had assumed that, since so many east European ecnomies are tied into west European ones, and share the downward demographic spiral (although not the upward muslim one) they would get dragged down part of the way too. A bit like Britain. However, resourceful and skilled populations there may pull away once freed from the dead and patronising hand of Euroleftism. Which way do you think it will go? Yours, Gavin Simon You'll be delighted to know that Israel was attacked last week but I regret to inform you that no land was taken in retaliation. www.israelnationalne... 2054th Kassam Since Disengagement Strikes (IsraelNN.com) A "Kassam" type rocket launched by terrorists from the northern Gaza strip exploded Wednesday evening without causing damage or casualties. The rocket apparently struck an unpopulated spot. According to IDF's OC Southern Command Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant, 2,053 Kassams have hit Israel since the Disengagement. www.russia-ic.com/ne... A tragic accident happened at a Russian nuclear-powered ice-breaker. Very sad. America feels it is right to attack Al Quada and Taliban positions. If in doing so there are innocent people killed – so be it. On the other side Al Quada felt it had a reason for attacking America and the Twin Tower and if innocent people are killed so be it. So it goes around and around and around. And in the circle of mayhem and violence – so many innocent people are killed. One is no better than the other – and far as the innocent perishing. No one side can call the other bad / evil / vicious without labelling them self exactly the same. No one involved can call the other a ‘terrorist with exposing themselves as a terrorist "Churchill was half American". Really? Which half was American? His mother was an American but he was born in Britain, thereby making him a British subject, a fact which should make you very proud. USA and Canada are very popular destinations for Dutch emigrants. With a more sustainable population density, the attraction of the American continent is understandable. Well the real question is whether some are using the environment issue to deter the 3rd World countries to cathch up. If the West is really concerned about it, then everyone should share the responsibility on GDP per head terms. Otherwise it's going no where. How can you expect somebody living on &#163;500 a year to cut down emission with you? All that guy cares is how quickly he can make money to feed his family. When you sit comfortably in front of your &#163;1000 PC in a &#163;300,000 house distating what that poor chap should do to help you cut down pollution, what reaction would you expect from him? A company called JD Power ranks all US sold cars on reliability. It is a commercial venture, so I think links violate beeb rules. If you google, you will find plenty of data. ToyHon have been at the top of JD Power rankings for more than a decade. GM has moved into third over the past 5 years and is at a near dead heat or ahead in some categories. I personally have not owned a car in the five years since moving to New York, so I have zero personal stake in the debate. I did not mean to dismiss them. They sell well in the US. But their reliability records are poor. They largely sell on lower initial cost to people who think they otherwise have no choice. As I mention above in several spots, VW has done very poorly on JD Power and other surveys. VW's sales are down in the US as their cars are seen as an aspirational purchase and not a purchase of last choice. People who aspire to buy fashion cars may put up with some glitches, but there is a limit, as VW's shrinking sales show. I don't deny any of that - just helping you establish exactly the sort of leftie he was very anti communist (obviously) and anti stalinist. Read the other article - it's very good re why the left seem to be so anti-semetic etc. I'm from Lincolnshire, and we don't think of it as "surrounded on all sides by water" or even "surrounded on three sides by water and on the other side by Scotland". To many in East Anglia, Lincolnshire, Humberside and the East Riding of Yorkshire, the North Sea is not so much a barrier as a road. It doesn't so much divide us from the continent as it connects us to Holland and Denmark. (That's probably why, for example, Norwich Airport has flights to Amsterdam and Copenhagen but not to London. It's also why Hull, the seventh largest city in England, is seen by many as a backwater.) In Sultan, Rather than indulge in other discussions, perhaps you would have the decency to provide the source about Shatilla and Sabra being a terrorist shoot out. Or are you simply a Zionist liar? The big gamble for Israel is in easing the blocade. If the islamic terrorist groups use this to restock their arsenals, then the conflict will kick off again in a few months but at a greater intensity. "This is a world news message board, not a George Orwell, or a woe is me, or the BBC are terrible lefties message board". As the BBC is a world wide news gathering organization, MM, wouldn't criticism directed their way be a part of world news? The BBC does not restrict themselves to local politics only, though some believe that should be the case. And their news gathering idiosyncracies are gaining international recognition as well, if you ever were to read the WSJ. I have no time for your pedantic nonsense. Wow. Smoker has nothing to say on this? at Miss World pageant. But won't her burka lessen her chances in the swimsuit competition? Once again you are twisting things. Stay focused and on topic. >>He supported them before there was an Israel<< The holocaust and jew terrorism saw to it that there was an israel, hence jewish colaboration with nazis. Palestinians were being driven out of their homes in the 1930s. Should I post a quote from Ben Gurion?
No he didn't. Zionist education combined with talmud inspired lies.
Am I to take it that you understand why the grand mufti went to the nazis for help in preventing his people from being driven from their homes? Somehow I doubt that. One rules for whitey and another for the rest. John, that's quite touching. I'm glad to hear that you won't be making THAT mistake again! Yes, men are a mystery, too. How dull life would be if they were not. What's all the fuss about? Israel has been launching its own military satellites for a few years now, several of which must be looking down on Iran. As for it being targeted by Russia, what's new about that? KGB troops were standing by to "assist" after Sadat's "army" had over-run Israel in 1973. "If you don't like Jesus, go to hell." If more women went around topless it would be a less opressed society and sex crimes will come down. No. If a bomber deliberately plants and detonates a bomb, and that bomb blows up civilians, the fault is that of the bomber. To blame the victims because they could have avoided it if they had happened to be somewhere else at the time is odious in the extreme. "But George Bush is the USA and that's what you don't get, no matter how many times it has to be explained to you"...Don't worry. We get it alright, every time we see an American missile or bomb blowing the head off a little child in Rumsfeldt's 'Shock and Awe' , we don't just think of GW Cretin, we think of America. If people are willing to pay then good on them. Market forces, supply and demand and all that. muslim, arab, islamic "Extremist" its all the same on this board is it not? the bad guys? 1500 copies? Surely your title should have been "Karl Marx less unpopular". At that number, it could almost be accounted for by journalists getting copies to do their homework! Both Musso and Hitler were christians. Hitler told germmany he was doing god's work. But seeing as you see things that way, how can you therefore claim that terrorism carrying out acts in the name of islam are true muslims? You apply different rules in your reasoning and are never consistent. To antineocon - If anything is kept as SECRET as this one - SECRET F.O memo - then it means it is 'fishy' and not to be taken as seriously. This looks like it may have been a revenge spree by the Americans to avenge the death of a Marine.If that is the case then the American soldiers DID enjoy killing these women and children. "To Grant - //Which flag?//.... Well according to that Islamic Leader , "The Black Flag......" It seems that whether it's Black, White, the Skull and Crossbones, or one with a crescent on it, it won't be the Union Jack for very long, Jane. Especially while so many Europeans are accepting, if not actually embracing, radical Islam and turning on their fellow democracies. AL Qaeda will not be making a base in Iran - that's ridiculous, as they hate the Shia almost as much as they hate everyone else in the world. un peu (no t)... As for the joke I would laugh if it were actually funny and in the case of France, original. I disagree, Senator-Dr. Bill Frist (Doctors Without Boarders) is of the highest integrity and perhaps the most honest man in our Government. Hillary is up to her eye-balls in crooked dealings with lobbyists and mob connections. Also, she is no Bill Clinton (not like-able). People really despise her, she has approval ratings in the teens (less than half of Bush's lowest). Thank Darwin for that. The number of rubbish office parties I've been to where Kevin from accounts decides he's a lithe beach bum and can slide under the pole despite wearing a ridiculously uncomfortable suit and unsuitable shoes while having drunk a boat load of lager. And all in order to impress Sharon from catering who really doesn't fancy him plus she's just been snogging Phil from MIS. Grrr it makes me mad. Chavez is a good man. He is simply shutting down a station which is sympathetic to the USA, and we all know the USA want their hands on venezuelan oil. By shutting down this rogue TV station, he is acting in his nations security interests, which can only be a good thing. Lets hope he allows Al-Jazeera to broadcast freely, as Chavez is a friend of the muslim world. I have really grown to admire Chavez in recent years. He is a very strong, compassionate, charismatic leader. Red - Quoting you <<I'm sick of the brats banging on my door begging for sweets..... The little buggars should integrate better and stay at home if you ask me>>.... Nobody is asking you..... but you need to know that 'trick n' treat' is in THEIR country and it is THEIR CUSTOM and no stranger is about to change it....... "Lord Protector McBean" More analagous to CharlesI I would have thought. Particularly in respect of his constant financial demands of both parliament and his "subjects". Along with his Scottishness too (it's never a good idea giving a Scot the unfettered reins of power for the whole of Britain. It's always been a disaster whenever it's been tried before!) The West sees Musharraf as the lesser of two evils as if the extremists gain control in Pakistan the brown smelly stuff will really hit the fan. lol. Is that all you can come up with? Iran doesn't want "peaceful" energy it wants bombs. If Iran or N Korea just wanted energy then they would have taken the light-water reactor deals. //But Israel hasn't occupied Lebanon since 2000.// Israel still attacks Hezbollah and detains its members so it's a two-way street.The Israelis have hundreds of prisoners Hezbollah wants back.Anyway the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon want their rightful homes and land back.They do have a just cause. Message posted by colonelartist I am sure the americans soldiers who went wild and killed innocent people in jalabad didnt also mean to kill.... what is it that you people like to call it when the west doesnt mean to kill but still kills? Collateral damage or something.. ---------- Can you for once post on the topic? Stop going off into left field. ///Several inventors, scientists, and engineers contributed to the development of radar. The use of radio waves to detect "the presence of distant metallic objects via radio waves" was first implemented in 1904 by Christian Hülsmeyer,[2][3] who demonstrated the feasibility of detecting the presence of a ship in dense fog, but not its distance. He received a Reichspatent patent Nr. 165546 for his pre-radar device in April and on November 11, 1904 the patent 169154 an amendment of his patent for ranging that is indirectly related to his device. He received a patent (GB13170) in England for his telemobiloscope on September 22 1904.[2][4] Prior to the Second World War, developments by the Americans (Dr. Robert M. Page tested the first monopulse radar in 1934),[5] the Germans, the French (French Patent n° 788795 in 1934),[6] and the British (British Patent GB593017 by Robert Watson-Watt in 1935),[6][7] led to the first real radars. Hungarian Zoltán Bay produced a working model by 1936 at the Tungsram laboratory in the same vein//// Ok, but it was a German who invented the concept, from which the Americans came next, then the French, then Germans again, then Brits derived modern radar. Are you advocating that any minority be it large or small has the right to independence no matter were they live? If you elect men of violence they don’t suddenly become respectable just because they start wearing a suit and tie. Begin, peres, Rabin And many more stopped being terrorists the momment they wore suits and were elected. Ismail khan, General dostum stopped being terrorists when they shifted to suits, they are not being elected. So wearing a suit definatly makes one non-terrorist. Self-righteous drivel tony silver One day your a man of peace the next day your showing your true colours fact is you have shown many times that your an anti semite and a bigot. You spell Jew or Israel in anyway you like I dont really care it changes nothing about yout attitude. And most killed in karbala were iranians. "grant are you still saying that killing 1300 people as revenge for the deaths of 13 israelis is self defense?" And where did i say that, glowingtrw? Still haven't mastered the art of using quotes? What's the matter with you? "and if you dispute the figure of 1300, why dont the israelis allow journalists into the war zone?" I have no idea what the death toll is, and neither do you. www.honestreporting.... "like i said - israel is the biggest dog in the ME yard". And why is that, despite not having any natural resources. Can you think of any reason for this apart from the education of its people their willingness to work hard? "so it does what it likes because international law, the authority of the UN or any other measure of international governance does not apply to it". Perhaps. Would that be any different from the Islamic terrorists who are attacking them? I'm of the fight fire with fire school so whining about only one side in a conflict matters little to me. Either both sides follow the rules or the gloves come off. "explain why israel has nuclear wepaons" Because they are a democracy governed by rational people. "why it imprisoned vanunu for 20 yrs when he revealed this fact?" He broke the law. "you liars say iran is an existential threat to israel" - Not just to Israel. If i said it was just Israel, and again you offer no quotes, then I was in error. These nut cases are a danger to everyone, though mostly to their own people. "well the same can be said about the occupied WB and Gaza". Sure.
But atleast they are playing their part, sending the message that they belong to France. Look's like Jingles is unable again to answer my posts with any facts to the contrary... Yes, much like the "hear, hears" from supporters and rumbles and grumbles from those who disagree and the various sitting and standing and shifting around in one's seat that you see when watching British Parliament. Pit-man, "It seems that jj has started two threads on this subject in an attempt to portray Europe as somehow being the only culprit in this business which is far from the case as I've already proved on the other thread:" You proved nothing, and Europes dispicable behavior speaks for itself, especially in light of your "Agreement" and posturing to the contray...your hip deep in current Toxic waste disposal business and it's killing people. "The point is that Europe has passed laws and entered into an international UN backed treaty to stamp this trade out." That agreement was 7 years ago, how long do you need? "Obviously it will require some effort and take time but the US has refused to ratify the same treaty in fact it's the only major nation which refuses to do so,.." I'll look into Why the US , Austarlia and number of Countruies didn't sign, but once again Euro's did sign but continue to dump...whats up with that? in fact it's the only major nation which refuses to do so, which weakens the agreement and makes things harder for everyone. .."...which weakens the agreement and makes things harder for everyone."" What , You need the US to behave correctly...typical...LOL "Yes it's bad and unacceptable but jj ought to do some research before he launches into another of his inadequate Euro-bashing tantrums." It's so easy ...as you are Euro hypocrites... Yeah. That is right. Those Nazis were easy push overs as we know from seeing repeats of 'Hogan's Heroes.' A few unarmed Jews could have easily bested them. The Russians, Brits, US, and other allies only took three years of concentrated effort destroying the Nazi war machine because they wanted to pro-long the lucrative war machinery contract buying. Sheesh! Regarding a plan for a resolution for UN troops: "Any state that sponsors this draft resolution will be regarded as assuming a hostile attitude against the Sudan," he said. That's really helpful. Just imagine! Jordan is one of the few Arab States that has doplomatic relation with that arrogant state. It was the obligation of israel to inform Jordan before this sad tragedy happened. But I believe that israel was more interested in protecting its citizens avoiding them not to visit Jordan,and that is all. Israel is this kind of "friends"! Peace is good for the Israeli and Palestinian children, as this kind of atrocities will sadly make many peaceful Muslims turn radicals. As everyone knows America's only really special relationship is with Israel. ///The Palestinians didn't want their land taken from them. //// "And for this very reason Palestine created The Lebanon, Syria and Jordan." They only wanted to stay on their own land where many of them had lived for many generations.Unfortunately a lot of Jewish people flooded in and took it from them. My great gtrandfather fought for Canada during WW1 but I do not know where he was. Remember your soilders and the sacrifices they make for their country The girl wants her mum, she was scared and devastated when her mum was kidnapped. And now that Yvonne has "found" Islam, she couldn't care less about her daughters feelings. If you are a parent your child comes first, full stop. Don't lump us in the same excrement as you. We (Europe & Canada) told you all to go to hell before and we will tell you again Go To Hell !!!!! The clever tactic used by the U.S. saying that "western values" are a cheap ploy which nobody is buying. Not even our "lap dog" p.m. !! I'm not convinced. I'm sure it was me. But as you have beautiful eyes I will gracefully concede. Her showbiz column is well worth reading. Not. It's nice to finally 'meet' someone with the same idea/thought!! nologo - The << majority of Jewish people are arabs - dont you know>> No, I do not know.... so stop trying to flatter the arabs and yourself. Jews are not arabs - and unfortunately for them arabs are not jews! Ruth, OK, what I’m going to do this time is spell out my argument and supporting evidence as simply as I can. America invaded Iraq to control its oil. You ask “WHY do you think they want to control Iraqi oil?” Well, the answer is that oil is very useful to America. Why is it very useful to America? Read this article: www.energybulletin.n.... In a previous post, you asked “please explain when you think we'll start balancing the scales against those billions already spent and the billions more to come.” I pointed out that you were assuming I thought America would “balance the scales” at all. Now you claim not to have made this assumption, but I'm afraid you did. It’s there in black and white. How am I supposed to answer a question based on a false assumption? I don’t know whether the American investment in Iraq will bear dividends. I don’t think the Americans do, either. “If [the motive is] money…at least explain why you think the US government would think it would be profitable.” I’ve had to cut out large chunks of your post to find this question, but I think it’s what you’re getting at. Why did the US think it would be profitable? Well, in my opinion they had a much shorter war in mind. They wanted to fight a quick war with a small army, gain control of Iraq, install military bases and a compliant “puppet government,” then leave. You’ll notice that I am not replying any more on the Canada question. This is because I don’t think it merits any further response. If you really want me to write another post explaining in ever-increasing detail my reasons for believing that America will not invade Canada, I’ll be happy to do so. But I’m hoping against hope that you’ll just let it drop. Atleast I have travelled to the Pasha's country a lot of times. Thats why I know the egyptians so well. Err, it was a joke wasn't it?" One mans joke is anothers "Spit in the face" Goodness. What a stuck record you are today! I condemn all acts of terrorism. I condemn all acts of murder. But I suppose given, by your own admission, you have trouble with english, perhaps you are just misunderstanding these simple sentences. There are english classes available if you are having problems integrating. English please. There is no such thing as the "British" judicial system. The article points out - "While the president's sentiments about invading Iraq were known at the time ..." So there is nothing new in this. The article is talking about a second UN resolution and it is well known that the US were not in favour of one, believing that the existing UN resolutions were sufficient. it was blair (the usual incompetent Blair0 who wanted a second resolution - to appease his opwn party, and Bush agreed to help him). In a joint press conference before the wart Bush clearly pointed out the purpose was 'regime change' - this is always been clear and not covered up by the US. The French were busy making money out of Saddam and we now know all about the illegal oil for fraud scam. Marley: It is hyphenated because some people prefer to be hyphenated... If you are black in the US, you can decide to be an American who is black, or you can choose to be a black-American... If you are black in the US, you can decide to be an attorney who is black, or you can decide to be a black attorney... this attitude contributes to some blacks separating themselves from being just people who happen to be black... Ah Blue Sea, nice to see the postings divorced from their context. No doubt you think you are very clever, but actually its a bit of a cheat. However, this reminded me of something: "The Jews have been a corpus separatum for more than three thousand years and counting." How might that be? Jews are not the only group of people who have lived apart from their neighbours, or who have been driven from their original lands. You have the example of the Chinese communities dotted around Southern Asia, you have the Roma. Historically you have the Huguenots, the Cathars, the Alans, the Sassanid. And additionally you have the expat communities of bankers and traders, Lombards, Venetians, Netherlanders, even Scots. They've left their traces in family names in odd places, street names, churches and houses. Historically all have been shunned and persecuted from time to time. Historically too all have eventually assimilated into their host community through inter-marriage and such. Except the Roma, whose wandering life style rather precludes assimilation. Jews assimilate too, but there must be some special reason for the supposed 3000 year "corpus separatum". It has been finished for ages.They are just waiting for the radioactive goodies arriving from Russia to get it on line. Of course the men are out fighting, as are many of the Israeli men. Or are there me not allowed to fight like yours? Every isareli bomb shelter I have seen is mostly women and children and elderly, are they human shields? jj I don't know where you see the comparison between Nazi aggression and the present day problems with Islam. The two situations are completely different. Certainly did not make the Brit destruction of their nation right. Ashanti slave trade was also exaggerated by the Brits to defend the forcible destruction of a nationstate clearly recognizeable by western standards. Of course we condemn Muslim terrorists. I have never for one second agreed with anything they have done. But did America have to become Christian terrorists in their since 9/11 actions? America in not banning the use of cluster bombs which kill so many innocent people - are in my mind in the same category as the Muslim suicide bomber. "Oh dear! I thought I was getting the hang of it. Weren't the 'euroleft' supposed to be moral relativists - or was that just me?" The two are not mutually exclusive. forumdude2 Shahab Darvishi was charged with organising a “corruption ring”, deliberate assault, and “lavat”, which means homosexual relationship between two men or sodomy, the official news agency IRNA reported. _____________________________________________ Yea most probably a dinner party, don't you know even if gay meet for a purely social event in these countries that is punishable! "Only the most gullible fall for the lies." What lies, wendy? he not only wrote the name Ismail (or some reports state "Ishmail") on his arm, he also used that nom de guerre on the package containing his "martyrdom video". littlegreenfootballs... PS Why `Gustav' ? I must say my immediate thoughts went to Mahler as I am a Mahler, nut, (recent anniversary BTW), but maybe more likely is the German philosopher Gutav Hempel who emmigrated to the USA around the mid 90's. Othwerwise google is useless and answering `why Gustav'? Can you do better? J I do love to feed the fish..watching them swim to the top of the bowl the way they do...so easy.. Was Mohammad a Jew? Is this the Laurie Mylroie,the buddy of John Bolton,Richard Perle,Paul Wolfowitz and other right wing looney tunes politicians?Is this the Micheal Moore of the neo cons but without the facts and figurers to back the claims? Is this the Laurie Mylroie who has tried to implicate Saddam Hussain for every anti American terrorist act since 1993, including the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma? Is this the person that politicians both Republicans and Democtrats have recognised as being a crackpot? And you believe the drivel? Surely not,you can't be so naive. Israeli police have evidence that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's family received $3m in bribes, it has been alleged on an Israeli television channel. Police have been investigating illegal political contributions allegedly made in 1999, when Mr Sharon was running for the leadership of the Likud Party. Last November Mr Sharon's son Omri pleaded guilty to violating party funding laws. ************ news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/... What is it with those criminals. They are creeping out everywhere, bribing there way... They don't coma back from THAT one! And you know this because.... ....they tell you so? The BBC is a propaganda machine of the worst sort these days. Sorry ozy, I know how much many people like to cling on to the idea of its greatness, but I really despise it. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 84 'suspects' (people that the US suspects of something, anything really)are on hunger strike in America's concentration camp in Cuba - yes, Cuba ! The American camp guards are poking tubes up their noses down into their stomachs to force feed them, which is painful and making them sick. How many more indecent acts committed in their name will Americans put up with ? The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of &#8220;cowardly blending&#8221; in among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel. Jan Egeland spoke to reporters at Larnaca airport in Cyprus late Monday &#8220;Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children,&#8221; he said. &#8220;I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don&#8217;t think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men.&#8221; I think that Ms. Royal's sudden rise in popularity can be seen, from a European perspective, as a conveniant counter-balance to the new German Chancellor. Who will inevitably fall at the final fence in respect of a transatlantic tariff removal. Neither the U.S. or the French will agree to an end to subsidies to farmers, which would be prerequisite for any such removal of tariffs. Funny how the "leader of the free world" manages its own economy along the same lines as the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"! "Why don't you?" Because I didn't make this claim, you did. "I'm sure you know what I'm talking about though" I have no idea. "you'll never admit it until it stares you in the face, of course". In order to have it "stare me in the face" you're going to have to support what you said. Can you? \\I'm really very impressed with the effort you went to in gathering those quotes, Captainlogic, and i recall most of them myself.\\ Grant, I can assure you that the effort was minimal. One minute of searching produces scores of such comments (and worse) from the US right wing, ironically the people you seem to identify with most closely. And those quotes are recent (from the last 1 to 3 years), so your claim that things have changed doesn't ring true. \\We are very close, and Canada couldn't want for better neighbours.\\ Thats not how it appears, at least for some. Another quote I saw was that "Canada needs the US, but the US does not need Canada" And please don't try to speak for Europeans in their entirety. If course there are differences between EU member states, but for the most part we get along just fine. You should stop gleaning your world view from rabid right wing media and actually come and visit us over here some time. And I am not even from britian...and I dont believe there is multiculrism in britian....Just thought we should get the records straight. "On the other hand, Socialism puts a premium on social and economic rights - a full belly and a roof over one's head. " Not been puffing on more of that delusional weed have you? The bye word of command economies is shortages, shortages of everything, including housing and food. Obesity is spreading because the American way of eating - the burger - is spreading all over the world. Not what one would call healthy eating.... This is incited mass hysteria and nothing else. To compare some line drawings with threats of physical violence is laughable. The German consulate was attacked today ..furniture was smashed, the office was ruined, people were threatened and shots were fired. This was an office promoting cultural exchange, a peaceful part of the help that Germany gives the Palestnians. And you think this is fine? You think this is justified because some minor Danish newspaper exerted its right to print cartoons? You allude yourself if you think that you are not being manipulated. However, if this is really what you think, colonel you are indeed my political enemy: you have no concept of how a peaceful society is supposed to work, you have no clue about what is important in the way how people live together and you have no idea how democratic societies solve conflicts. You should be thinking what all the fuss is REALLY about and what the likes of you are being used for. UK Member of Parliament George Galloway has received a Palestinian passport from a Hamas leader in Gaza. Mr Galloway was part of a convoy which delivered financial and material assistance to Gaza through the Rafah crossing with Egypt on Wednesday. The aid convoy was organised by the Viva Palestina group and supported by Mr Galloway. He personally donated £25,000 and a fleet of vehicles. The group visited sites which had been hit during the three-week offensive. Mr Galloway said: "The material destruction is very great, the suffering is very real, but the spirit of the people is strong. If anyone is calculating that by starving and sieging and bombing the Palestinian people that they will one day surrender, I'm sure that they are wrong, the spirit of the Palestinian resistance remains." news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/... Actually, I think you'll find that alot of Israelis do not spout hatred about the Palestinians, in fact, not all Palestinians spout hatred about the Israelis. It tends to be outsiders who are most likely to spread hatred. thats why the meeting may well be just a joke... aaaahhhhhh Moshe. ...all leftist. Puy Rubbish. They may have been floating round the sidelines and happy that Pinochet led the junta but they had nothing to do with Allende (albeit democratically elected) putting the country on the road to ruin which was the major cause of the coup (apart from Cuban militias etc doing his dirty work making the route to another Cuba even more obvious) defending you country comes in many shapes and forms a land based invasion of the US is not a realistic threat overseas wars are all that america will fight in the near future you can't pick and choose, you're in the army otter: the Dutch are not racist--Muslims are not a "race..." The Dutch are obviously very intelligent people--they have the capability to recognize a rat when they see it, and they have the courage to call the rat a rat... Why would you object to truth and reality? Not at all. That's why I answered your question. What I do mind is people starting discussions but refusing to discuss anything. You asked a question and I answered. If you're just taking a poll, you should have the courtesy to let people know that when many (like me) initially assume that you're starting a discussion for a rather different purpose -- odd as it sounds, to discuss things. How nieve that people here think that handing over the soldier will mean an end to the problem? Israel has been holding Gaza and the West Bank hostage for 66 years! Will handing over the soldier mean that Israel will withdraw to the pre-67 border? Will it mean the right of return for the Palestinian refugees? Will it mean the release of the Palestinian kids and women from Israeli prisions? Will it mean that Israel will stop the incessant shelling on the occupied territories and stops arrresting Palestinian freely? I think not! Israel must stop its arrogant wrong policy and seek for peace through DIPLOMACY and not BULLETS,if it wants to live in peace among its Arab neighbours! Say to Israel, ENOUGH of BLOODSHED and be civilized!. "You are racist " And I know I am not. As the forum's arch anti-Semite, the irony of you accusing others of racism simply beggars belief. You KNOW you only defend radical islam because of its virulently anti-Jewish stance. What about the people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? Do we believe them because we can't prove otherwise? How about if I start a petition and get the whole country to sign it, we'll tell the world we can walk on water - it'll be true becuase millions of us said so. What a rubbish argument. It's like I said, in times of desperation, people need something more, so convince themselves there is a purpose, someone looking after them. It's comforting, nothing more. Dream on, boys, dream on. Yes, this is a hugely good point. 'No goggles, No singing!' I'm making my placard as we speak. The slight weaving from side to side like a circling Lancaster adds to the effect as well. Still, while our lads are getting kicked out for having a dry sense of humour, the Italian Ultras can knife anybody who beats Italy. Obama's links to Islam? Do please tell me that you are talking about his Muslim relatives, and not anything else? I don't think they are planning anything at the moment. The Russians have vested interests in Iran as has China so an attack on them SEEMS unlikely. We are slowly getting back to a Cold War situation as China and Russia get more power. To cut down on any Western defence or missile system would be a big mistake in my opinion. Well as long as people keep volunteering to go. Honestly, any time your work training manual has instructions for handling an M-16, you have to know there is danger involved. And the majority of enlisted soldiers (they do 4-year tours) signed up after the war in Iraq began. So to answer your question: thousands upon thousands. No one is forcing them to go there. They do it because they are brave. Malchrome Re you two posts here - good to see a few home truth's. You seem to post less these days. I do hope that's because you have better things to do and not beause you've given up on your campaign for common sense here! J This heart and mind term is racist...its time to get rid of this stupid term... Ah well Rita, you'd better stay in Jerusalem where this kind of excellent entertainment is available. I'm sure you're new Hamas mentors will be sentenceing to death those who wish to have a good time in the palestinian territroies. Greymatter is dumber than a fence post. Happy Now. "The land was taken in a war that was not started but was won by Israel" Well there is a little more to it than that. Liek I just told you opposite on here...I have to get out of this argument on who is the bad guy. Silly me sticking my nose in it again. Sorry, to clarify, maybe the word"modern" was misplaced. I was referring to Muslims. And to answer P&S, yes, I`d call them both. Possibly so, but it still represents only the WSJ and not "America" Oh dear. Trying to yoke together the idea that anti-business is the same as unreliable ....... Anyway I'm not trying to argue that the WSJ is a shabby rag, I quite agree that it has a solid professional reputation. I'm merely pointing out that it represents only one strand of opinion. Actually yes, or at least it was heading that way. Europe was in the process of recovering from WW2 and withdrawing from its various empires. Europe's R&D was falling behind the Soviets, never mind the Americans and Europe's economies were stagnant. Back in the 1950's the Deutschmark was mickey mouse money and the French franc traded at 1000's to the dollar. And the British pound was part way through a long decline. No, but a Europe of mutually suspicious nations that can be played off against each other might suit. Not so suspicious that another war was a possibility but certainly the WSJ would approve of a Europe where the various nations competed in lowering taxes and regulations on business. Business always likes governments to engage in a race to the bottom on workers rights, environmental protection and corporate taxation. (If you think states should race to the bottom like that then maybe you should do the decent thing and tell us why you think workers should have little or no job security, why polluters should get away scot free and why the burden of taxation should fall disproportionately on the middle incomes and lower) colneljihadist 'The reality is he said in 2003 that he didnt have WMD, ' The fact is that he would still be alive today if he had let the weapons inspecters have full uninterupted access to all the sites they wanted to inspect. If he had nothing to hide then what did he have to lose? He gambled and lost. Tough. What makes you think that there is such a stance? "An NBC/Wall Street Journal poll from last week showed 68 per cent of respondents supporting a Senate bill that would allow illegal immigrants to join a guest worker programme en route to full citizenship." From here: news.independent.co.... All you are interested in doing is attacking my posts and me. This discussion has ceased to be productive, and as such i'm withdrawing from it. Have a lovely day. Insultan The new palestian PM could shoot another arab in the head and huindreds of pals could be eyewitnesses and watch it happen and it could be on live tv. If they were later told by the PM that the man with a bullet in his head was killed by an Israeli F16 most of them would buy it. Pillock. What is the "intrinsic relative value" of anything? That's just gibberish. P.S. Why don't you get "EU Mutuals" to organise the bartering. P.P.S. Don't bother whining to the mods, they've already ruled that "pillock" is acceptable. "so its ok to post anti-Muslim posts ?" No. Anti-ISLAM posts. It is important to understand the difference between opposing an illiberal ideology, such as islam, and being racist. Tell me ms.McNeil what is you prefered news source? Your leading questions are making a lot of assumptions that give readers rather more of an accurate insight into your particular view points than mine! You'll have to get down off your high horse and take a deep breath before I can have a rational debate with you ms.McNeil. They could be someone like George Galloway. (Anyone seen his beard recently? Funny isn't it?) No I dont need to educate the people who are already highly edcuated. I did, and I stand by my remarks. Your 'above' post adds even more substance to the belief that you have no understanding of the separation of powers. You posted it you great numpty.I have explained to you that I am on your side.I just think you could do a lot better.There was a tremendous opportunity to achieve positive things after 9/11.The world was with you.Instead Bush completely squandered all the goodwill. No its only the israelians who can sue.
Which race are 'muzlins', Solomoron? One only has to look at Amnesty International's 1977 Nobel peace Prize work to see just what an intolerant regime Malaysia has. All, of course, a consequence of post-WW2 attempts to limit Chinese expansion by the British! In a pig's valise you have!! If that is the case, then "militant" would be an acceptable term for Islamist terrorists, rather than "terrorist". There are Islamic groups whose objections stop at demonstrations and words, they would consider themselves militant but not violent. It is not REQUIRED for militants to be violent. Hmm, which word, phrase or website is forbidden I wonder? m2l2j3 "It never fails to amaze me how you and the rest of your ilk try to rewrite history." Yo Dude...the only ones trying to rewrite history are the likes of you. Put the following in your Cafe Latte and choke it down: Arms sales to Iraq under Saddam:1973-1990 Russia: 57% France: 13% China 12% Czech: 7% Poland: 4% Brazil: 2% Egypt, Romania,Denmark, Lbyia, and US: 1% each Your words are haunting you: "Nice try, but as you know, the whole world knows the truth" Salome Samadashvili, Georgia's envoy to the EU, has appealed to the Eu to take a stance against the Russian invasion. "She expressed disappointment the EU has not reacted more forcefully to the crisis in her country. "So far there has not been even a properly worded official statement that would tell them (the Russian) clearly that they have to stop and that they risk their future relationship with the European Union if they don't," she added." www.foxnews.com/stor... I feel sorry for this envoy, she's about to get a fundamental lesson in Euro politics that was harshly learned by the Jews 70 years ago... Never been there. >> Swimming pools in the Bankstown area are closed for certain times of the day so that Muslim girls can swim<< How terrible. In the UK we have women only swimming sessions. Isn't that the same? >>Driving licenses can have Muslim Woman covering there face as a picture (begs the question what’s the point then?)<< That is ridiculous. Perhaps Oz is to blame for that and not the muslim women. >>The Mufti of Australia demanding that the Labor party (State Government of NSW) have a Muslim in Parliment<< How does that change the culture of Oz. He wants a muslim to work in an Oz system. Hardly changing the culture. We had the Black section of the labour party here demanding an all Black shortlist for potemtial candidates. Did settlers assimilate into aborogine culture or did they demand the aboroginals assimilate into their culture? That is after they nearly wiped out all of them. With all her millions she could move to a nice place with great weather where the paparazzi would no longer be an issue. Apparently its just the opposite tho, she or one of her people calls the paparazzi ahead of time to give them a heads up about her plans for the day. If her mental state is so fragile already, just imagine what she will be like when the press no longer cares. Looks like the civilian engineers were engaged in well-digging and reservoir engineering. Trying to bring fresh water and sanitation to the Iraqi population merits a death sentence in azania's book. Straw man argument. You are defining insurgent attacks as either terror attacks or attacks on US soldiers. Then you are saying that since more civilians are dying than US soldiers, the insurgents are killing more civilians than soldiers. <<LOL! It took me about 25 seconds to rubbish his argument...>> LOL! What you mean is, it took you about 25 secs to delude yourself into thinking you have a counter-argument when all you proposed was tautological nonsense! What came first, the pro-Israel policy of the US govt., or the first gulf war, hmmmm? <<...people like Chomsky are NOT only not prominent JEws....but.......you hate Israel simply because you hate the US and the west....etc>> Get real! If I hated America and the West I wouldn't have cheered at the recent elections in the USA and I wouldn't bother to wish TB, the little chore-boy belonging to GWB, out of office in my homeland of the UK...Furthermore, if you don't think Chomsky is famous both as a Jew and as a linguist with outspoken and well-known political views against the US/Israel alliance, then where have you been all these years, besides studying hard at your Zionist Propaganda 101 course...?? Message posted by bordeaux57 "Nothing in my post disputed the inclusivity of HMD (other than the Armenian Genocide). I pointed out that though the Armenian church disputes HMD they do not boycott. I also stated that I felt that the view of politicos handwringing for a few moments doesnt fit well with the dignity of the memory. So what point have I missed in that re Rwanda?" I was making the point about HMD being inclusive - one of ghe reasons often cited for the day being unjustified is that it isn't. I have only accused the MCB of boycotting HMD because they refuse to accept the invitation. (For those who refuse to accept the part played by the holocaust in the creation of Israel, please make a note). So i guess it was this that made me think you were emphasising a lack of inclusivity.....i may have misinterpreted that. "Both Genocides along with other massacres should be studied and quitely commemorated with permanent memorials. HMD somehow demeans the whole" However, i do not share your opinion of HMD being in any way demeaning. The service is quiet and dignified and it is quite correct that "politicos" are reminded of what the consequences of their actions are. Referring to such commemorations as "handwringing" does rather suggest to me that it is those who do not like such days who have less respect for some tragedies than others. Well put JASB! Nothing is stoping the rest of the world, no one cares. Bolton and his government pick and choose when to 'liberate' countries when its in their interests. Someone tell him Bush and Blair will be leaving office in the near future before he starts to raise an army. Grant,although religion does play a part in the recrutment of terrorists, the primary reason for terrorist attacks is a response to the occupation of foreign lands by Western governments. You leave them alone, the attacks stop has history not shown us this? Sorry, that was for tonker (little wiener, as I know him) I said Bush lied about the whole WMD thing. You are trying to use the supposed humanitarian angle (which in fact Iraq is now far worse and should have some humanitarian intervention as those in charge are clueless and useless). And you post the words that suit your agenda and critise the other words in Koran? Well, either you believe in everything which it says, or nothing. Selectiveness in G-d's words is not allowed, but again you are not muslim, so you would do exactly what you are doing. Have you ever considered being a professional satirist Albert? You're absolutely brilliant, all this Cretin stuff really cracks me up. Its right on the button - genius at work. Hi Ozy, It is quite interesting to hear you say this because one of the ongoing debates on this board is the re-electing of Bush vs. the re-electing of Blair. UK posters often say that they find it incomprehendible that Americans re-elected Bush. When US posters in-turn ask UK why Blair was re-elected, we are often told it was because of domestic issues and that voters felt Blair was very strong on internal British interests. And here you are suggesting that Mr. Blair did not take British interests seriously. Of course there is always going to be differing opinion. But from what we have generally heard on these boards, the one positive attribute that most UK posters have praised Mr. Blair on was a strong policy of British interest. Ruth, My e-mail message simply says 'it's against house rules and that some posters may be offended'. This doesn't help as it can refer to many posts and it doesn't clarify areas of inconsistency. PS. I'm quite over extended myself in replying to posts and they all seem to be Middle East related. I suppose I'm to blame for joining the threads. Eh? That depends on your definition of natural. It is natural for homosexuals to be homosexuals. Where have I said otherwise? Is this another talmud inspired lie? After all, jews are permitted to lie to gentiles to make their point (talmud again). ~~~~~wouldn't like someone to come and claim even my coal cellar as his own, would you?~~~~~ Well Teresa an ethnic Roman of one's aquaintance (descended he claims from Claudius)has this idea that there an imperial right for all Romans to re-settle Londonium at any time. One understands that his elephants are already massing on the docks at Calais awaiting suitable cross channel transport. Have suggested that he fits them with water wings and teaches them to swim! Here is your Independence Day, so read it and weep: www.iht.com/articles... We Evil White Brits are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. Your lot though, you don't even aspire to the damned. You just hold your head up high while beating the poor, the sick and the elderly. You're ruled by a class of people unto themeselves, those who by their very actions gave Colonalism a Good Name a looooong time ago. Congrats. Wake up....stop kidding yourself....Noone just invade a country, especially blessed with the resources on which the west exist-oil, to just leave it....Do you recall one important thing that went missing in all the planning prepartions? the future plan for Iraq....Too bad your journalists who flocked bagdad like vultures were cowards who didnt even have the nerve or maybe they didnt want to do, ask any of your lying evil leader about the future plan of Iraq... If those muslim terrorists scum didnt do 9/11, no one will ever bother about iraq/ afghanistan ; IMHO No one should ever bother about islamic countries; if any one do attacks like 9/11, they should be dealt harshly so that no islamic terrorist will ever dream of doing terrorist attacks ------------------------------------------------- And if america had withdrawned its forces from saudi arabia after liberating kuwait, ben laden and other non saudi, saudi arabians wouldnt have to start opposition campagain against the king, and, and if the americans had withdrawn the troops from saudi arabia, they wouldnt have to tell the king to kick ben laden out of country and go to somalia, and if americans hadnt destroyed his asprin factory in somalia and forced somalia to kick ben laden he would not have come to afghanistan.... The breach of the British-Polish-French agreement was the single greatest treachery in modern times. But I digress...IIRC UK History channel ran a program based on the newly released telegrams between Roosvelt and Churchill...was very telling...De Gaul was very seriously in danger of being shot... I_pardon_U Re your last sentence : This entire thread has so far been restricted to `Western' art and although Mistress raised social/cultural influences these were not explored beyond western `limitations' and indeed all the references to `great' art i the thread have been `western', ie perhaps 20% or less of the world. And yet in this so called era of `globalisation' surely communication via art should be simpler/more natural and provide greater `meeting of minds' than the communication of politics. You must be right about the arbitray selection of scales, be they 8 tone or 12 tone but I have no knowledge of wider global music - beyond Indian music which was intially brought to me via the affinity between Yehudi Menhuin and Ravi Shankar, (apologies for any spelling errors). Your point about the `social aspect' of music is clear, and demonstrated in so many ways from being part of moods for celebrations or sad occasions etc but in these cases it is incidental to, even though in sympathy with, the main social event. So I continue to submit that music - and other art forms, are personal at a `higher level'- in terms of both the motivation of the originator and the `meaning' to the recipient. J The CIA has so far refused to hand over control of Iraq's intelligence service to the newly elected Iraqi government in a turf war that exposes serious doubts the Bush administration has over the ability of Iraqi leaders to fight the insurgency and worries about the new government's close ties to Iran. The director of Iraq's secret police, a general who took part in a failed coup attempt against Saddam Hussein, was handpicked and funded by the U.S. government, and he still reports directly to the CIA, Iraqi politicians and intelligence officials in Baghdad said last week. Immediately after the elections in January, several Iraqi officials said, U.S. forces stashed the sensitive national intelligence archives of the past year inside American headquarters in Baghdad in order to keep them off-limits to the new government. ????? where did U learn 2% * 10% = 20 % ??? it is 0.2% or 20 basis points silly! Maybe you should tell that to them. They believe they have some form of 'mandate' from the people. It won't be long before they screw-up, and Americans go off electing Jorge Bush III. Yes, the fulfilling politics of vindictiveness! quote>That day cant come soon enough. Let the jews come back to their rightful homeland if they want to (europe or US). If they dont them let them remain as citizens of a free and secular palestinian state. What makes you say that the Jews rightful homeland is the US or Europe as opposed to Israel? Are you not aware of history?! As for a secular Palestinian state - very unlikely - given the popularity of radical Islamic groups it is very unlikely it will be a secular state. That is a pretty bold statement, but I do give you kudos for at least having the strength of conviction to put an actual date stamp on your prediction. 20 days left for your prediction to come true. You say Bush will spend £6.5bn. on the disater. In fact he will not spend a single penny. The belief that he will is a common misconception. There is many a slip between money allocated and cash recieved. Poverty and need does not mean a deficiency in accommodation, food, water, transport or security. It means a financial deficit in cash. 10,000 people died in the hurricane. all of them were poor. No social worker died in the hurricane. It will cost £7bn. to process the corpses and all that cash will go to the wealthy. £1000 cash would have saved all their lives but none all of it would have gone to the poor. People are either concerned about poverty or gannets. Nobody can be concerned about poverty and gannets. Whatever food goes to a gannet does not get to the poor. Nobody can have their cake and eat it. Either the poor can be fed or the gannets who hang around them distributing "services". All governments should produce properly audited accounts detailing the disparity between cash designated and cash recieved. Poverty relief, broadly concieved, is grand larceny on a massive scale sustaining a flock of gannets half the size of the whole population and guess what? They all happen to work in the public sector, the same sector which recieves the taxation distributed. Grant, Ne'er count on the Yanks. pax, I'm denying those noble treaties, however we are talking about some unclear definitions here under specific circumstance that collide with US Rights and Law. The most vexing is applying a definition and rules, in this case' of whether or not the techniques used do or do not constitute Torture and do conflict with the Right to Self defense from an imminent attack by terrorists. //But Brandon/Parker was inferring that there was some sort of sinister Jewish cabal (presumably including me) on this very message board// It was reported that there are Jewish cybersoldiers at work on the forums and Naz's post soon found its way up to one of the top Jews (Melanie Phillips) who used her job to pressurise the BBC into removing it although they did not consider it to have broken any rules.It is sinister to subvert normal discussion on all the message boards and forums. For making America so rich and powerful. Thanks All’ you are the best and certainly know how to reward your favourite sons and daughters. No, she's not. Can we get a REAL Muslim please?! Yes, lots of countries would not like to see Iran get the bomb. Not that that makes a scrap of difference to the question I asked you. The US is doing the sabre rattling and did issue a direct threat in the past. Please have another go at answering the question. Some of its members were Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, James Woolsey, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Bill Kristol, James Bolton, Zalmay M. Khalilzad, William Bennett, Dan Quayle, Jeb Bush. All very minor figures Pete? Bleeding national pride. For india, ceding kashmir could lead to the break up of the country. Other provinces, in particular the sikhs, will demand their independance also. "Maybe you can account for the Brits emigrating....could it be the weather? The rising crime? The high Taxes? The Muslim / African / Eastern European immigration stresses?" No J.J. Whenever I've asked, the reply has always been along the lines of: "I'm not living here any longer because our government has embroiled us in an ridiculously expensive illegal war, against the wishes of the majority of the electorate, started by that muppet in the White House!" How odd that UpYerPipe's original post is now currently being hidden. Yet, considering that UpYerPipe is in pre-mod, his original post would have been read, reviewed and approved for posting by a moderator. Perhaps moderator vs. moderator disagreement? "Placing a bet, Colonel? Next thing you'll be telling us you've got an investment account with the Woolwich and you finish your day with a hot toddy spiked with malt whisky". Are Muslims not allowed to place a bet, Teresa Meyer? And yet the Colonel did it anyway? How about that Colonel? Is it true? How will you be punished? "What's the point if everyone who points this out is dismissed as a 'whinger'?" Grant, you won't be dismissed as a whinger if you can provide substantive evidence of this alleged 'serious downhill slide'in US/UK relationships. But you haven't. Your opinion piece specifically excludes Britain from it's main claims. "Do you really believe that relations have improved since that article was written five years ago?" No Grant, in respect of US/UK relations I doubt that much has changed significantly in that time but since the article indicates good US/UK relations (that's the British leader depicted alongside the US president) no change doesn't amount to the 'serious downhill slide' you have claimed. As is typical of you Grant you have linked to an article without reading and understanding it. It uses unnamed sources which you Grant have said should always be condemned. Do you condemn their use in this article Grant, yes or no? It acuses American of 'impressive ignorance'. Do you agree with it Grant, yes or no? Most significantly Grant you yourself have declared this article out of date. In a previous feeble attempt to show a 'serious downhill slide' in US/UK relations (another occasion when you failed to read and understand the article you linked to) you claimed French and German relations with the US were very good. Now Grant, do you think things have improved for relations between the US and France and Germany since the article, yes or no? "Prove it!" I don't need to I'm not the one claiming any great change, you are. Now can you prove it? "It's difficult to believe how very stupid you Brits have become over the past couple of generations!" Ha,ha,ha! Poor Grant, has got his knickers in a twist. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/... Computer chipmaker Intel has been fined a record 1.06bn euros ($1.45bn; £948m) by the European Commission for anti-competitive practices. It dwarfs the 497m euro fine levied on Microsoft in 2004 for abusing its dominant market position. The Commission found that between 2002 and 2007, Intel had paid manufacturers and a retailer to favour its products. The investigation followed a complaint by the world's second-biggest chipmaker Advanced Micro Devices (AMD). The Commission said that Acer, Dell, HP, Lenovo and NEC had been given hidden rebates if they only used Intel chips. Ouch. Yawn Always the same anti-American drivel from the usual suspect BTW, how is your buddy Bin Laden? Still alive? You obvioulsy have no idea what George Bush is like. Just your media induced paranoia. Is this thread still wheezing on? I thought I'd killed it on message 2!! Perhaps ISR, it would help if you stopped infantilising the Afghans. "Everywhere but Quebec, dear". Darn! I'm going to miss her. Ad hom cop out. If you think you're too clever for this board, then join one on Mensa's website. I second the request: Please explain that comment. There is no relation. Everyone except for those who willingly chose not to know, knew what will happen in iraq under occupation. I'm not sure you and the others understand. the grand mufti angle, (and all your other propaganda angles) has no impact on anyone. my enemys enemy is my friend ? look at who britain have teamed up with in the past, and the damage we have caused. including palestine. palestine was wiped off the map. what year did the mufti meet hitler ? the holocaust wasnt suggested until about december 1941, according to Jewish holocaust experts. like i say though, this along with most of the other hate propaganda has no impact. probably makes western subliminally pro-israeli neutral gentiles more sympathetic to pals. It has now come out, on Newnight last night, that Britain supplied Israel with 'heavy water' to help them build nuclear weapons. Infact , Britain sold it for vast amounts of money. Apparently the USA knew nothing of this. It is now believed, according to the same program, that terrorists are soon to be in possession of nuclear weapons. Vanunu was right when he said the world should be freed from these WMD. I fear it is too late now. As from today, Angela Merkel takes over her role as Chancellor of Germany. She is going to have a difficult time. Already knicknamed the Iron-lady, Merkel has announced cuts in pensions for civil-servants and the highest increase in VAT in Germanys history. The heads the Grand Coalition and is disliked by many. Message posted by Zebras Viewpoint The Pope sees his flock slipping away - and his outbursts will only see more of his flock exiting the Vatican pastures ------- Maybe you should ban religion? que F1. And what 'irrational domestic agenda' was that? The one which led to the sustained economic boom we see there today? Can you prehaps compare the US with the more 'rational' European agendas and demonstrate where you're better off? I'm really keen to hear your explanation for the 'root causes' of international terrorism. There hasn't been enough of these poorly thought out cliches coming from that area of the world for the last day or so. It was pointed out on an american tv network, that when this and Chavez spoke in the UN, many of the seats were empty. In some cases only the lowest member of each delegation was present to hear what either men had to say. Mind you those who did say applauded cahvez as he finished, but that was propably like listening to an Alan bennnett monologue. That "choice" is technically known as "sedition" and people are executed for it. If the UK cares so much, then why don't they just go back and re-draw those borders again like they did 100 years ago (when they had a real military force). Let me get this right, Israel buys weapons from the U.S. with the American money given to them as aid, Israel then turns around and sells her own built weapons to China and in the past South Africa. Do I read you correctly? If so Macbeth's "o, what a web we weave when try to deceive" comes to mind. By the way News just in that Rita has now become a Category 4 hurricane. Rather numbing watching this unfold on tv all over again. It looked like absolute chaos watching 10,000 Dawson students fleeing that campus then wondering panicked around the city trying to find their friends. Lets hope those kids on life support will pull through. missippi So tonys proposal of encouraging posative discrimination against jews because they control the world economy is no longer enough now murder is the only solution Its just a shame that we are in the 21 century and we still have people who think this way And the same Ismail khan the war criminal who looted the UN truck conveys...that is the guy you are willing to trust??? he is nothing but a liar, a criminal and murderer....just like his counter parts in usa and Uk.... It's amazing. 100+ people dead - of all nationalities - and all Handyman can do is provoke an argument about Israel. cost me ten quid to call us embassy to complain my check was late! Ally !!! How could you insinuate such a think about Madonna ?.She would never ever do anything just for the publicity. Ever. A lady with such a heart ?. Never !.Not a multi-millionairesse whose backing guitarist of 28 years died of poverty and neglect in a public hospital. /////Yes but why do you support Israel? Are you attracted to people who hi-jacked someone else's country?////// LOL!!! That is VERY funny! Why do people support Palestinians? Do they support terrorism and groups with charters to ethnically cleanse Jews from Israel? quite right green day. A country which forced the inhabitants to leave it by hook or by crook should be banned from taking any refugees.Whats more Sudan should keep any eye on Israel or else it will steal sudaneese citizens just to fill its own diffuse and ever changing borders. Iraq was not a threat to the USA You are wrong right there, so no need to go further. you begger belief mcneil. just sneer down that nose of yours, but ohj if it were a jew suffering, now that would be differant Piltdown `The US signed a convention outlawing all chemical weapons in 1972.' Yes but this is another of those moot points, like napalm and white phophorous etc, ie the use of the chemical is not specifically aimed at people, eg the dioxin example was to clear forestation. People become `collateral damage' or `should not be in the area' or should not eat the fish or drink the water or eat the plants etc contaminated by dioxin, depleted uranium etc. Nor should civilians be around when cluster bombs are used, nor should children play with them, nor should people, especially civilians and children step on land mines which are only sown to kill the enemy, and so on and so on. I suspect we have a long way to go in controlling some of the more horrendous weapons of war. J The big winner is Iran. The big loser is the Bush/Blair/Neo-Con/Israeli doctrine of using overwhelming military force to deal with "terrorists". Iran has won both in Gaza, Lebanon and Iraq, precisely because there is democracy there. Iran supports organizations that have popular support. The governments there cannot say: We don't like the groups supported by Iran (perhaps under presure from the US), so we are going to close them down. That can only happen in Egypt, Jordan and in Saudi Arabia. Iran has also validated their military doctrine. Hezbollah's military wing was trained by Iran and they performed pretty well against Israel. Also, the bunkers designed by Iran were able to withstand Israeli bombardments. This means that Iran's revolutionary guard would perform well in a war against the US. If the US attacks Iran, then that will trigger a repeat of the Lebanon war, but now on a much larger scale. Iran will fire missiles at the oil installations in the Gulf. The US will try to stop that using air power, but that won't work. They would then have no choice but to invade Iran. Ultimately the US will be forced to sign a humiliating cease fire with Iran. A cowboy going to India. I hope he is aware of the difference. I can't help you then, sorry. Dunno, to get away from a terrorist attack? LOL, do you ever stop boo hoo'ing? Bogus? Perhaps, except for the glaring reality that all three situations hold one thing in common: Islam. These people are in a social and mental "ghetto" due to Islam. Turkey will be rejected due to Islam. The people Prodi is expressing fear of practice Islam. Docu, Yes bigots exist everywhere. You say modern arabs are doing alright. Well only for the first reason you gave, which was oil. Resort tourism? Be serious. All other 'industries' (including terrorism) are financed from that sole resource. Mr Benz has much to answer to for empowering so many unwholesome people, regimes and their oppressive systems and ambitions. Look, Israel is a democracy whose military actions have been born of defence of their nation against the rancorous hostilities of their arab neighbours and the wider islamic world. So many rush to condemn Israel as if it had some kind of imperialist agenda. Of course nothing is further from the truth, and to claim otherwise is the true province of bigots. Yes mohammed. Seen any good stonings recently, up Blackburn way. Ow about a crane job strangulation. There's nowt like a good strangulation before a black-puddin breakfast lad. >>They've kinda made it about poverty.>> The issue is , is poverty at the route of the terrorism we see from Pakistan and or the Islamists? NOT do we wish to get rid of poverty, I think most right thinking people would wish to do that. as for Hugo Chavez check the inflation figure in Venezuala, what does 28% inflation do to the poor? As for Evo Morales, he is a 100% racist, he dresses up his racism as marxist ideology. His hatred is for settlers and could not give a mump about indigenous Indians well being. Being pale but interesting, I continually bleat about the heat. I can only guess what it would be like if I shared an office with Nikki from Big Brother whose hatred of air con is now bordering on the legendary. it looks like its purpose is spam "complaints" people may think its a reliable site and then feel duped //The Holocaust was the deliberate decision by the Nazis to kill millions of their own citizens because they were Jewish.// They killed all kinds.The Nazis didn't like any non-Aryans,which includes black people,Chinese people etc etc.They were even quite disparaging about Russians.In Germany they just found a scapegoat for losing World War I.It happened to be Jewish people but it could have been any 'immigrant' group that was handy.We see this type of thinking on these boards from the right-wingers who seem to blame immigrants for all of Britain's ills. //The Holocaust was really very different// That's where we disagree.Minority groups are often scapegoated.It happens all the time. I guess you would rather we were ALL into Islamist boot-licking, but its not going to happen. Hi John-Wragg, I could almost picture the Kreschev/MacMillan exchange. In that case yes, I totally agree. Put downs can be devastatingly more effective than a simple "why don't you **** off...?" However - in the kitchen... drop an egg... it's your last one... you bang your head, stub your toe... you're not looking to have a witty discourse, you just want to explosively vent your anger. In that situation, a bit of swearing lets out a lot of the aggression. the beeb needs to implement captcha. looking at my posting history, i suspect i've been hacked too The Gasgoine: turbulent and intoxicating, with optional watersports. CAFTA. Now there is HAFTA...HAFTA to go from Mexico to the U.S. to get a job because the NAFTA and CAFTA jobs went to China! Holocaust is not a new word, Jihadi is a slur, so was Mohammadans, and so is islamists. I suggest you do some reaserch on the meaning of holocaust from the jewish point of view. The word holocaust that everyone uses, actually is not neutral, its a jewish word. Words are neutral, the image they create is subjective. BoyDavey, It is my belief that there are people at work doing their level best to undermine our alliance. As if we dont have enough problems... But I do think our medias play a role, and I think the BBC is considerably guilty of this. This debate regarding Kyoto - were the constitutional legalities ever once mentioned in articles as to WHY the presidents (polar opposites like Clinton and Bush) of the US didnt sign? Have states rights ever been mentioned or is that new information for you? (Not being antagonistic, just wondering). I sometimes think the intracacies of our government and separation of powers are confusing to our European cousins, (NO not a comment on intelligence) simply because the easy article and the one that will get the most notice, is the one that claims that we are anti-environment, not 'world team' players, imperialistic, capitalist pigs with no care for the world around us. So the core of the matter is glossed over and reduced to impressive sound bites and catch phrases that further the divide. What started out, (I am guessing) as a movement to assert the EU as a world power, akin to the US, has instead had the effect of empowering muslims worldwide into thinking that Europe literally hates Americans. Unfortunatley, travelling there and reading a lot of foreign press has had the same effect on a lot of Americans. No, I am not. Why is there this assumption that raising some perfectly legitimate questions of Israeli policy means you are a racist? His lawyer argues that Abu Hamza, the Sheikh of Hate that was sent to prison for seven years for preaching hate, should be released as he was convicted under Victorian laws that do not apply to foreigners. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/... OK - no problem, let's let him out of jail. There is, however, an extradition warrant from the USA for him... I wonder how the Americans would treat him? If you dont like isrealians i can use the term jews from now on. The jews are fighting against hezbollah. /////Looks like Obama is getting fed up with poor wee Israel.///// Well so many times, tsarion, the Arabs attacked 'poor wee Israel' and each time took a massive beating. So, if Israel is "poor" and "wee" doesn't this suggest how tiny the Arab nations and Terrorists surrounding it? Doesn't it illustrate hos impotent and insignificant the Palestinians are if Israel is "poor wee Israel"? Context is enlightening tsarion. Let us see you defend your point. Hello! Hello, are you there? Message posted by Danish "Please don´t blame Hamas,but the Israeli apartheid policy that radicalized peaceful Palestinians" Tony How would you describe the policies of Israel's neighbours that refuse Palistinians citizenship, jobs and human rights? Apartheit perchance? "The litany of crimes against humanity by contempory RELIGIOUS extremists is a long one. Lets not get into a petty debate of which one is longer". Why not? In fact we should be debating just that rather than ignoring it. Which religion do you think is most associated with contemporary terrorism? "Which religion was invloved in the Air India bombing Grant? Canadians died didnt they Grant? Our fellow citizens". Sikhs, and the trial was a farce. But that was then and we're dealing with another religion now. Had Sikh terrorism continued then we should be condemning them also. Way of life? That would indicate it is the daily norm. Do you know how many total high schools and universities there are in the US? Yes, these events are tragic, but certainly not the norm. If that were the case or if it were a "way of life" you would hear about it happening a dozen times a year. Not a few times over the course of a dozen years. To say something is both yearly and annual is redundant. But please provide the factual data to back this up. Please list the last 10 years lets say and list the "way of life" school shootings for each of those years. As I understand it, youth violence is on the rise in the Europe - specifically in the UK where its being reported that gangs are becoming increasingly violent and beginning to use more handguns. Are you saying your government does not allow you to assess your own mental stability? How do they stop you? Have they implanted surveillance chips into your brain? Which is why you no doubt felt the need to be on your soap-box about it. And you make this statement on a poll that you conducted amongst "most Americans" Data gathered from the same poll no doubt? "Ethnic Cleansing", "Apartheid"! What's the matter stuck for "Atrocity"?" No because for me words have meaning. Avigdor Liberman for example is an outspoken supporter of ethnic cleansing and other "treatments" (involving busses) And he is Israel's Deputy PM isn't he. "Perhaps you could start by explaining how Israel is an Apartheid state with between 1.3 and 1.6 million Israeli Arabs." Er what is your point. SA had millions of blacks. You can't have apartheid without someone to be apartheid against. The point is that the extreme gang who form the israeli government (whose nominal head is facing rape charges, whose PM is up against corruption and whose deputy PM is known even in his own country as a supporter of ethnic cleansing)distinguish and give different rights to jewsih and non-jewish citizens. The Palestinians have no rights at all, though they are compelled to pay Israeli taxes etc No Israeli even disputes this. "Did you see the Arab/Palestinian supporters injured while rioting in Jerusalem? They were treated by Israeli medics and hospitals. How does that fit with Apartheid?" Do you know how many non-jews are allowed to join the Israeli police force? Do you know who the head of the force is and all the senior officers? Do you know non-jewish citizens of Jerusalem are being slowly ethnically cleansed fromt he city. Perhaps you should try learning something. Coppeliadee That is not true. The Media is in the hands of Jews as Ropert Murduch,in the US and Britain. Arabs has only Al Jazira,that restricted by the Zionists West. Oh good- we haven't woken them up Thank you. I hope you stayed clear of people then, especially women and kids. Good luck. I certainly am familiar with the responses, General. They are trotted out frequently and repeated ad infinitum as though they have some sound reasoning behind them. It is better if we were to tackle those issues individually though, and perhaps have a greater perspective on what happened. Of course all these picayunities are secondary to the important central issue, which was to take out Saddam Hussein. No WMD's first. It was not only Tony Blair who believed Saddam had WMDs. You do know that, right? But do you also know that it was incumbent on Saddam Hussein to demonstrate openly that he not have WMD? That he had to comply with the UN resolutions? That he comply with the restrictions brought in after Gulf 1? That he must allow unfettered access to inspections? That he had WMD in the past, used it in the past and was intent on developing WMD? Let's look at this issue first and then move on, ok?? "Not quite. They are obviously looking for an out from their wishywashyness. This is better expalined in the same article." An out for there "wishywashyness"?? Can you be more specific because your article doesnt explain. The only thing I would disagree with in that quote is the suggestion that they were "worried". "So "some" complained and perhaps Muslims and Jews as well. But it seems to not have been a big deal from a nation of many millions. " Big enough deal for the ASA to investigate. Then there is this funny chap. Presumably he agrees with every other advert on every bus he drove. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/... Why should only zionists hate the Iranian government. It is offensive to anyone with any respect for the human race. Gar, is it a controversial statement? I thought he was proud of his role as a Basiji instructor. I can't find any reference on Amnesty International but that proves nothing. Am I actually wrong about the nature of his involvement wioth the Basiji? Well thats your opinion and the Israelis opinion. The palestinians believe it belongs to them so the hatred and fighting will never stop. Great teresa! I have a friend on this Board now! because I love all the same things too..... Regards. It's true of the UK under Blair.This is not a government with any principle.We've only just stopped discussing his absolution of Tessa Jowell. I'm from Scotland not Ireland selector. Scots drink whisky ... but not this one. I can't stand the stuff. Now, is there ANY chance of you properly addressing the points raised in msg 10 viz a viz that you can't blame the west or Britain for the poor management skills of your? countrymen and the fact that the few remaining white farmers who of course do have good management skills are not having such a dandy time as you would have us believe? Who needs to have a link to know that IDF is an army of religious people? all jewish. whose only duty is to kill the palestinians, or occupy the land for the euro-and americans jews, to come and live freee in settlements. I didn't think so, here you go - Likud Likud spokeswoman, Iris says that the Likud party stresses the State of Israel’s democratic identity with full equality for all its citizens. Previous elections: approximately 11% of the Likud’s votes came from the Arab sector. Forecast for upcoming elections: the same This is an opinion piece on a Zionist website, whilst there is an element of truth in it, it is very much over played. Rubbish, it's a report into a study by Haifa University: The study, based on a representative sample of Israeli Arabs (700 face-to-face interviews) and on interviews with 85 Arab public personalities found that the leadership is much more radical than its voters. It then goes on to break down the different findings from the study, some of which I have already highlighted. Come on, it's not that difficult to understand the written word, or the typed word for that matter. That's precisely it.As long as the US veto any attempts by the UN to act against the Israeli crimes then they will do what they like. They did not vote for the appeasers. If you remember the right wing government tried to blame ETA, and the people knew they were lying. The Islamic Jihad literature, Al Queda tapes, and Arabic messages might have had something to do with it. Only fools would have supported such a government, who lied to their people and presented false intelligence. Oh, I've just remembered - Blair's dodgy dossier, and Bush's presentation. john Mne. Thanks for your illuminating post. I now realise only Muslims kill fellow Muslims in times of war and conflict. Let's face it the 1939-1945 and 1914-1918 world wars where nearly 50 million people died were also Muslim killing Muslim,plus the Spanish Civil War,Falklands War and a few others were Muslim only affairs. What's your point Poindexter? Hi mistressofmydomain**, Mistressofmydomain quote: “Glad to see our friends to the north are wondering about the hypocricy of the US not going to Darfour but have failed to wonder at the hypocricy of the UN with Sudan on the Human Rights commission.” Not “friends to the north” but one equivalent of a Euro Lefty in Toronto. He is not speaking for all Canadians but just our “anti all things American” loonies. BTW I would take him apart myself but its close to 8:00 in the Sandbox and time to head home. Besides you guys doing a pretty good job of bashing him on your own. Warmest Regards, Smoker I will condemn suicide bombings of course, but I will also condemn the Israelis when they kill Palestinians. My condemnation will always include both Anyway, enough of your deflection. As I said, I am half Iraqi and I am more concerned about the invaders in Iraq more than the conflict between the Pals and Israelis. I'll leave that to you and your fellow Israeli fanatics Let's say Los Angeles is hit - obliterated - gone. Would you be one of those who would prefer it if the US did nothing? What if London was hit? And when did we go to war with Iran? oh i see..right...ok yeh, lets criticise america. lets not bother to criticise indonesia or saudi arabia. yeh!!! Looks unlikely to me. Syria does not have a strong military force. In case of war, Iran will target the British base in Basra and US bases elsewhere in Iraq using missiles. "despite concerns"??? What can they possibly expect? It seems those "Changes" BHO promised might be coming to pass but they'll probably limit him to one term as a result. George Tenet has aired out the dirty drawers of the Bush Administration in his book "At the Center of the Storm." The Ex-CIA Chief takes the blame for the erroneous National Intelligence Estimate in 2002 that was used to justify the Iraq invasion. "Remember, when you write an estimate, when you estimate, you're writing what you don't know," he said. “In retrospect, we got it wrong partly because the truth was so implausible." Tenet reveals the Bush administration had already concluded Iraq was going to face consequences before the estimate was finished in 2002. He recalls running into Richard Perle at the White House on Sept. 12, 2001. Perle "said to me, 'Iraq has to pay a price for what happened yesterday, they bear responsibility. I remember thinking to myself as I'm about to go brief the president, 'What the hell is he talking about?"' He also writes "There was never a serious debate that I know of within the administration about the imminence of the Iraqi threat.” Tenet claims Dick Cheney wanted to "handpick" Iraq's leaders after Saddam’s fall and limit the country’s involvement. This was despite proclaiming publicly that establishing a democratic government was among the reasons for the invasion. Cheney and Pentagon officials pushed for a ruling coalition that included Ahmed Chalabi, Kurdish leaders and exiled Hussein opponents "Rather than risking an open-ended political process that Americans could influence but not control, they wanted to be able to limit the Iraqis' power and handpick those Iraqis who would participate. You had the impression that some Office of the Vice President and DOD reps were writing Chalabi's name over and over again in their notes, like schoolgirls with their first crush," Tenet writes. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/... www.centredaily.com/... www.denverpost.com/s... "I notice that sch’s comment did not include the number injured in gun massacres in American schools." I just don't get it. Can't you and the others simply say how utterly horrific it is for kids at schools to hurt anyone instead of throwing entire cultures under the bus? What purpose does that really serve besides the old "beating ones chest ranting out loud"? "Did you happen to check out "Georgia cowardly dumps its military hardware"?" Nope, Grant... Got stucked in reading their forum, very funny. BTW, speakin of what I`ve seen on other Russian (Russian language) sites recently - ex-military fellas criticizing this latest Georgian adventure for exposing malfunctioning of regular Russian army. They failed some basics, like taking out anti-aircraft georgian fire-power, Russian troop losses too high considering the superiority in numbers over Georgia etc. If one doesnt speak Russian he/she misses half of the fun Internet can bring! Strangely enough, the grandchildren have embraced both cultures, I believe that to be my doing! "As far as the Iraqi casualty figure it is a max 61,840 civilian casualties caused by military intervention "..............................................Well, that's OK then. GW Cretin will only face 61,840 murder charges. What difference does it make whether the book is a religious tome? George Bush fervently refers to freedumb and damnocrasy when his marine massacre civilians, perhaps we should ban all of that? >>Sean, if the location was perfect there wouldn't be a problem would there? Instead it requires a lot of military activity to hold onto it, which strikes me as less than perfect.<< SO what are you saying, because its not perfect they should give it up? At least the smileys still work!!! Kind of nice, though, of ia-jamo to say so. Not many around here prepared to be as honest as that. In fact, I remember this MB lining up to condemn, so convinced were they of a different verdict. They've all mostly, typically, hypocritically, now switched to condemning the jury for not putting him to death. Thanks. That was a brave move, ia-jamo. That's a no then. About a decade earlier to be exact. In his speech to Congress on October 3, 1945 President Truman warned that nukes in evil and ignorant hands would inflict unspeakable horrors upon mankind. But it's the Governments telling the military who is bad - not vice versa. ? What a ridiclus argument, we were told to do it by government, we don't think for ourselves.. Thats a lame excuse for the destrution of hundreds of thousands of innocents don't you think? I think you'll find elemets of the military and intellegence servies make thier own laws, i.e "Operation Gladio". running operations without government consent. Do you mean the BBC part of the world where right wing tubes call the BBC lefties,liberals,pinko,commies and fanatic left wingers call them tools of the establishment? As for the president of Karbul he should move his arse and get on the Heroin trail as pruduction has doubled since the 'liberation' Almost as poorly is factually correct, but irrelevant. You are either going to deal with the thinly veiled attack on an entire nations education or you can join the mud slinging with purile arguments, that actually enforce the original childish argument of the entire thread. ianpeter Abbas's condemnation is sickening considering he recently passed a lwa granting the families of suicide bombers monthly compensation. And Israel's responce? Olmert says he's ready to hold final status negotiations! Probably an election ploy - I hope. Otherwise it looks like Israel's to be led by another incompetent left wing gov't. "By the way, Lacewing, do you have any quotes from any of these people to support what you say? Did you know that there are Muslims who are at war with you?" Look on the BNP's and other similar organisations websites, Grant - you'll see what I mean. Well, some Muslims may like to think they at war with me - if that's the case I treat them like I treat any other religious nutters - I just treat them as deranged criminal lunatics. You in effect make sane their insanity by arguing against them on their own terms. Your hero Dubya played their game by declaring war on them - a fat lot of good that has done. gothicdumster 'Your lot tried the same trick on Galloway, btw, and he's still there, more popular by the minute, while your Zionist bootlickers like Blair are on the way out...LOL' Wasn't Blair re-elected despite the war? Wasn't Bush re-elected? Wasn't Australias john Howard re-elected? When was Gallows-this-way George elected into office? Next you'll be saying the MCB isa respectable organisation. stuart 'It's certainly one of the theories doing the rounds, along with theory that the boy wasn't even killed.' I haven't heard this theory or read about it anywhere. Have you got a link? 'What was I saying about wacko theories?' Again, a simple question. Who gains more when palestinian children are victims? What does Israel gain? Nothing. Whereas for the palestinians its a huge propoganda score. The fact is that the palestinians kill their own for propoganada and the al-dura incident simply exposes this. it's jail not a holiday camp I agree with you. It seems an intelligent tourist industry allows its guests to either immerse fully, in part, or not, depending upon the guest. That is why the ugly American charges have always confused me. By the way, I became a vegetarian living in Hong Kong in the late '80s. There were many very good - and very Chinese - Buddhist and secular vegetarian restaurants on Lantau Island where I stayed. At that time, China had few places to match even average Hong Kong restaurants. I imagine that has changed over the past 16 years. Clutching at what straws? I was questioning your statement As for sharing the same family name. Do you know common that name is? Do you know where both mens families come from? You do your cause no favours by inventing facts. So we can attack anybody we dont like? _______________________________ Yes, we can pre-emptively attack someone who threatens World peace wrt The Western World. Someone from the ME might think that about Western countries or Israel. Its just that we have bigger and better weapons and so We will pre-empt any ideas They have. As opposed to a Neo conservative christian fundementalist country.. ___________________________ They like it that way. That's called Democracy. Almost 70% of Americans disapprove of what Bush is doing in Iraq. If they all emailed and phoned their Senators and Congressmen demanding the impeachment of the oil grabbing warmonger in the White House or they won't get voted back next time I think they would listen. Dirty Dickie Nixon was forced to resign because he was a liar, and since Bush's lies have caused many thousands of innocent deaths he surely deserves imoeachment at least, before he goes to jail. Its simply enough to state that the Palestinians never implemented the FIRST act of the Roadmap. Roadmap isn't a parallel process its a sequence. The sequence starts with the Palestinians renouncing terrorism and incitement and disarming the Terrorists. Since they never did that then they killed the Roadmap. I don't have to refute anything else. I'd defend Zebra against accusations of bigotry. His problem is, in Rumsfeld-speak, he doesn't know what he doesn't know. Unfortunately, that's quite a lot in his case. So, now its Danmark, Canada and Russia involved. The most amusing is to see Russia claiming its ownership over N. Pole resources (thats the real issue, I believs). Could it be because Russia is short of natural resources? Nahhh... c`mon, that 1/6th of dry-land has never been short of about anything. Or, could it be - because Russia is unable to create any other added value, than pumping natural resources? That sounds reasonable. Kill the competition in process, bear with nukes has endless appetite... Yes that must be it. your enemy and mine - ISLAM spartacus, "In fact FARC emerged as a force due to its ability to protect peasants from drug cartels and landowners." ..LOL...What utter nonsense and absolute fabrication of the truth. FARC is a Drug Cartel.. and now controls and taxes most of the Cocaine in their part of the Country and exports it through Venezuela to the doorsteps of children in Europe. Maybe you should read the captured Diaries of a wayward Euro Commie who joined who joined FARC in 2002 ...her name is Tanja Nijmeijert...look her up. You can totally feel their disappointment. "This is entrapment!" Sadly it's not just the death cult followers who are bummed but also the so-called "pacifists" who've been waiting ever so long to say "I told you so, an aggressive war on terror only makes us less safe." Pfft. Yeah right. But for another day they will go to bed disappointed and losing. "I think the poster meant that they came into the united states from flights in europe." Yep. Leave it to the usual suspects to believe otherwise. I suppose they could have swam over, but it isnt likely. Or maybe they used the transporter from the Enterprise. Would go along with all the other conspiracy nonsense. The media circus surrounding this affair is muddying the waters no end. It's a bloody soap opera. The truth is out there but it's not in the medias possession. Ctoo, this sounds like junk science being used to justify some traditional misogyny. Bush is in Baghdad, when the bombs killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi the world became a slighty better place, doesn't everyone agree if bush was bombed in baghdad the world will be a better place. Are aljazeera as interested in instances of child abuse in the Arab world? "I believe it's a good way to apply pressure on Israel for what they are doing to Lebanon's civilians and economy." I would imagine that the Israeli people, who live under the constant threat of terrorist attack, will not give a flying **** if they are chucked out of a football tournament! "Grant spends his life on this board making ignorant generalised anti Euro posts or asking questions". LOL, Wraggers! Still haven't the cojones to address me directly, huh? I enjoy making worms like you wriggle! It's great sport and is always what attracts me to this site! Cuban Pete, Very possibly. Consider that suicide attacks are far from a new phenomenon but now that they're directed against 'Western' personnel the perception of them has changed. Previously it would have been 'Oh my how terrible, but what can you expect?'. Now the wailing and gnashing seems more sustained and 'heartfelt'. While I meant that it is expected that 'Terrorists' will be brutal, I think you are correct in attributing some form of racism to the easy acceptance of the denigration of entire populations. F. sir an englishman-in-new-york(state-that-is) please read this: www.haaretz.com/hase... IDF opens fire on Palestinians at Gaza border, despite cease-fire Israel Defense Forces soldiers fired at a group of Palestinian men who approached the security fence on the Gaza-Israel border on Thursday, wounding one, the military said, in the latest blow to a fragile truce between the two sides. Palestinian officials said two Palestinian brothers were wounded while when walking in a field. Say to Warmonger israel,Enough to Bloodshed in the ME,and respect the UN resolutions 242 and 338 in order to live in peace in the heart of the Arab World. "That is absolute rubbish, fripono." No it's not. Our french guests //did// tell us that the suburban violence receives very little news coverage in France. It almost as if hundreds of vehicles being fire-bombed is now considered a part of everyday life around Paris. "Says it all really. So much for Bush's repeated accusations of the U.N's impotence. The repeat of the mistake of Vietnam scenario has played out. As some, me included, said it would on these boards as far back as 2001." For the life of me I can't understand how any country can think they can invade a country in today's world without having a Vietnam scenario play out. It was an interesting Monday with the Dow, DJIA, up $286.87 for the day. Now we will see what Tuesday will bring... shame. He deserves to lose. edition.cnn.com/2005... Good riddance. The problem with Isreal now, is that it feels the need to retaliate first, before assessing the consequences of such action. It also expects the USA to back it up, whenever it does take action. Unfortunately in many instance the US has done just that, now I feel the USA has to step back and side with the vast majority of the world, in condemning this military action. I would have thought it clear, that Hezbollah is usuing the propaganda value of the violence to suit their cause. Isreal are in the wrong here, the focus of the violence and effect has switched from the kidnapped soldiers to the dead and injured civilians. Collatoral damage is the biggest hammer Hezbollah has now, to show the savagery of the Isreali response. The excuse, blame everything on islam and the muslims who go to heaven and get 72 virgins, didnt just come out of blue. Now imagine if the world found out that both chritians in palestine and infact Iraq are equally fed up of being killed by forgein armies. Which excuse would the civilzed, democratic leader use to justify the occupation and murder. What I am hoping for is that Hamas will let ME live, instead of chucking nasty boom booms all the time, in the hope that I and my neighbours will be the ones who will die. ------------------------------------------------- You have a choice to leave...while terrorists always somehow refuse people to leave the war zone so they can hide among the civilians, as we are promptly told, the civlian jews in conflict areas choose to live among the IDF..to protect it.. "and this from a poster who thinks that lgf is left of center " More lies from "wendy". He should know me well enough after all these years to appreciate that I don't "do" political left and right. Weblog LGF however does do a splendid job of combatting the poisonous views of neo-nazis, islamists and other extreme anti-semites. I guess that is why it makes "wendy" feel uncomfortable. AND the biggest - of many- reason why I hope that Turkey puts itself and many of its stupid practices to rights before it even THINKS of joinining the EEC! An additionsal unit containing Du that can be mounted at the tip of the bomb, undoubtedly exists. The heavier and denser the tip is the deeper it is able to penetrate. The 'Howstuffwork'-site explicitly mentions that DU is used for this purpose on those missiles! It seems to me that if you just fill the bore up with TNT, you will not have a heavy tip, like a dart arrow, which is much desired. Would anyone in the UK have been charged with treason for saying "Britain has nuclear bombs"...? Thanks. My dad persuaded me to read anything and everything that takes an interest with some specific recommendations from his personal experience. Well, besides psychiatrists being medical doctors and psychologists not... and besides reading choices, can you further explain this science theory? RoyBear06, >>> Such naiveté! The ethnic conflicts that already exist within the USA occur between US citizens, black, white, hispanic or whatever. <<< And everyone of them a Yank. Go figure. i would guess Jesus was Jewish in a land that has recently been called Israel (no borders set yet) Having said that, todays cannanites and phoneacians are probably a mix of the lebanese christians, and palestinians. the pals will have a lot of arab blood, but the canaanite dna is probably still there. So there is a chance Jesus was palestinian, or had some palestinian blood. I have often heard zionists say the canaanintes were the original tenants. Bethlehem is completely walled in now. www.imemc.org/conten... The christians had relatives and the christian culture to be able to move to places like canada and USA. heres a few more articles from the columnist the threadstarter is so eager to advertise www.haaretz.com/hase... (keep in mind theres a holocaust conference going on in iran) www.haaretz.com/hase... hyper "So the french fought the british over North America. Doesn't make it right. The British or Jewish immigrants had no right over that land" And the arab colonists did because....... "it knew about Zionism and the fact the most the Jews at the time were recent migrants so had no right to claim it. They had no right to marach in and steal it" You've already expressed your anti-semetism about this quite well, no need to keep repeating yourself. "The arabs were not a colonial power. Just by repeating it doesn't make its true!" So the arabs didn't come from Arabia? "A mainly arab region should be run by arabs in what way is that colonialism?" And please do tell us how the middle east became arab.... "like the French in North America for a large part were unsuccessful (unlike the Jews) at kicking the British out. The colonists were the European Jews trying to kick out the British ie colonists for colonists" Who were the Jews colonists for? "And I have explained how this was originally colonialism but they assimilated with the locals so they too became arabs so and not arabs ruling over "middle easterners". " Ah so the arab colonialists ethnicly cleansed the natives. Raped them....sorry, dated them and assimilated with them and one morning they all became happy arabs. Lovely. "The fact the arabs didn't rule the place makes it impossible for them to be colonialists as colonists need power" The arab colonialists colonised and then were colonised. They can't complain. If this is so unfair they could all go back to Arabia. "jewish migration though turned a majority arab place into a jewish place" And? Only an anti-Semite would object to this. Should we hand Australia or the US back to the natives? "because you keep claiming that lack of arab land ownership was a problem in them claiming soverignty. Isn't the the case as shown in SA." erm...no. SA IS a sovereign. "But the formation of Israel was based on a very recent wave so would be like Muslims claiming parts of Britain" This is getting so tedious and boring. Briatain is a sovereign. What is it about this word you can't get your head around? Spain is on the list, however, the terrorist believe they are 'playing ball' right now, and thus do not appear to want or need to attack there at this time..this however is my personal opinion, and is a speculation drawn upon my observations of their (al qaeda) sites..I don't like the fact they are 'going under' the water so to speak, and I had read bin laden's orders earlier..I posted many times of his objective to strike London..he said he would do this 'twice' then he would hit in the month of August with a chemical attack..you have the right to know this information. When has anythig stopped you from having a go at muslims, asians, blacks etc etc? You draw the line at jews. Why? Is it because many of them support your apparent racist attitudes (imo)? Albert, do you actually do anything practical to change the situation or do you simply rant on here? Are you all talk and no trousers? Yep. We can all agree that the one thing this board needs is a thread about threads about threads about why Americans have no culture. So this is it. Plear respond. Yours, Gavin There is a psychological effect known as 'consistency'. It occurs when someone has made a decision or supports a plan that goes wrong, and they resort to increasingly desperate excuses and justifications to avoid looking stupid. Does that sound familiar, Grant? That has never happened to me (I think ) It's some kind of special "voodoo" water - why can't she drink normal water like everybody else? Or like her horse? What's so special about her - she's only a pop star. Who you going to be blessing next -Robbie Williams? Would you be so concerned about her if she was poor? Want some of her cash, do you? Pray for me, I'll post upu a fiver. "John Bolton tells the truth" Really? find me one historain that will back up his claim that Lincoln only gave political and judicial appointments to his political supporters. Go on, just one. This was the 'fact' that Bolton asserted. He was so sure that he questioned the intelligence of the interviewer. however, he was wrong, totally, 100% wrong. The amazing thing is you think the US is such a stable place even today, how many murders are there a year? Our new foreign minister is one of the least inspiring,most condescending,irritating unlikeable,members of this government prepare yourselves to be appalled by the lack of talent available to Tony Blair and please accept our apologies. << Message posted by In-Limbo Though they may argue any cause they will nothing betrays the fact that they are still screwed, and they did all the screwing themselves.>> Duh? Who is screwed and who is doing the screwing? Your post does not make sense because there is no context. A significant year when the Arabs dumped by Egypt and Jordan decided to call themselves "Palestinians". Mrjingles DO you deny that zionists collaborated with the nazis? Errr, what is the religion of communists ? Aren't there a lot of murder & war in communist countries ? Speaking of BBC, Lots of pathetic journalists used to pay the afghans to say what they wanted them to say after the americans did what the israelians are doing in lebanon. It was pathetic little fun to watch them doing that, but again, since they were doing to fool their own audiance in the west so it was okay. Like a friend one said, the west believes in lies than in the truth. I think that after these "games" the olympics will never be the same again. You would have thought that the ioc would have learnt its lesson after the 1936 olympic "games" which were a showcase for the nazis. But, nope, the ioc just keeps on showing us what it really is: an uncaring, money grabbing corrupt organisation.... I mean, listening to ioc members telling us that there is no pollution over Peking, just morning mist, I didn't know wether to laugh or cry!! And do you think you have some logic? or goerge? Again, you are an Islamaphobe and bashing the religion at ever turn, you are a bigot, Grant, no question. Do I defent them, absolutely not, nor do I defend the murder of female babies practiced by some "Hindus" or the bownding of little girls practiced by some rural Chinese; or FGM practiced by many African tribes; or arranged marraiges practiced by many cultures in around the world; women have been oppressed and subjugated for 1000's of years, why choose Islam on which to focus? Because you are a bigot, an Islamiphobe with a well known history of hatred towards the moslems and now we find out all 3rd world peoples. I have no idea why you think this will happen in the UK. Most muslims will not agree with this appalling policy but it should be noted that George Galloway once said on Question Time that he has no problem with the Taleban and i do not think we will be hearing the MCB objecting to this latest action by Islamic Fundamentalists. Troops out of Afghanistan? Occupiers thousands of miles from home? You mean the Zionist immigrants from Europe trying to take land off the arabs! Oh, i can be an American any time i want, Tao, through their investors program. But i chose to live in other areas of the world and travel and visit there whenever i get the opportunity. But i have worked there in the past and enjoy the country and people very much. Anyone here think that this is down to global warming, or is this just one of those peaks that occurs naturally from time to time? Why not indeed, Grant. I seem to recollect that this is another topic over which you have some difficulty. >No doubt, they'll consider Hillary Clinton "more dangerous than Kim Jong-il" when she's elected< Absolutely rubbish, I can't tell you... absolutely rubbish! How on earth did you manage to come up with that one, white camcorder? Hitler deliberately used religion in order to satisfy the German people that he was a 'moral man' and worthy of their support. He often said how he intended to use religion in this manner and laughed later at how easily people were duped by these sort of religious claims. Just as they are today it seems.
Qualitavely speaking, more hyperbolic trash is posted her against islam than judaism. But then, its a western MB. You see bouncy, this is what i mean. You or jj or moronic can't provide me with any evidence he said it all. All you've offered is opinion, opinion, opinion, whether it be yours or someone else's. Now let's try evidence, ok? NEWSFLASH! "None" is singular: "not one". It therefore requires a the verb agreement "seems", not "seem". "None of them seems to know how to spell." "Gotten", FYI, is an older form of the past participle of "to get" that the British stopped using, but the Americans didn't. Hi Goldwater, Goldwater quote: “not having a say in whether country goes to war, when your government starts to break the law itself... you know what I call this? I call THIS a dictatorship.” You have your say at the ballot box. If you disagree with Blair choosing to help regime change a mass murdering dictator named Saddam then vote him out. The UK is a democracy and if you choose to be isolationist or ignore mass murdering dictators then vote that way. Calling the UK a dictatorship just shows you have no idea what a dictatorship really is. Goldwater quote: “If you deny people the right to protest you are not worth to be called a democrat .” Those are your words not mine. Where did I say you don’t have the right to protest? Go protest the regime change all you want after all the UK is a democracy but don’t try to deny the obvious that marching to stop the regime change of Saddam is supporting keeping Saddam in power. Goldman quote: “Oh really? And who decides this,” Circumstance put Milosvic, the Taliban and Saddam in the cross hairs. Personally I am happy to see the end of each of them. It could have been the military junta in Burma, Castro, Kim Jong and I would have been just as happy. I simply want open season on dictatorships in the 21st century and am not going march in the street or cry to try to save any of them. Goldman quote: “yes, he was a bloody dictator” But but but the infamous but! Then why did you march in the street to try to keep two of the world’s oldest democracies from regime changing Saddam? Goldman quote: “I am sure it was terrible. But so is Saudi Arabia. So it Kuweit, so is Nigeria, and so is Egypt...those heavens of the fighters for human rights.” And in the end they will all go down but circumstance put your anti American folk hero Saddam at the front of the line. If Kuwaeit, Nigeriam, Saudi etc had started two wars, filled dozens and dozens of mass graves then many they would have been ahead of Saddam but that is not how it worked out. Even so there is nothing you can do to save Saddam. He is gone. Goldman quote: “where I told you that it is not up to cowboys such as you to decide WHO is going to do WHAT.” Why shouldn’t democracies take proactive action to drive dictatorships into extinction. It’s the 21st century and they should not exist so they should be taken out one by one. Do what you want to stop your government from taking out dictators like Saddam. After all the UK is a free country but don’t try to dodge the fact that marching to try to save a dictator from regime change is supporting that dictator. There is simply no way to dodge that reality. Warmest Regards, Smoker Peace will come when palestinians rule the area. this is one step towards the goal. I am glad that atlast now the jews are on the track which I am sure hamas and rest of palestinians have waited for this for a long time. "Wonder how this would have panned out, ie if the USA had not invaded Iraq or Afghanistan,(with NATO) - especially in external terms re those countries?" Kinda liek wonderign what they day would have been like had it not rained. By the way....thanks for the "drain" label waggy boy. A new one. A novel idea though......Do try to find about your past and exactly what the British empire was before you sat down to criticize others. Sorry about that. Palestinian terrorist groups ARE terrorists. Islamic Terrorists have extreme views on Islam and Infidels. WHAT are you talking about? Get your facts right amigo. France stats.oecd.org/wbos/... Ireland stats.oecd.org/wbos/... Hmmm Grant, so you believe society should be organised UNfairly? Perhaps as a winner takes all by the strongest with Tony Soprano for president? tonysilver - When will you ever accept the fact that Israel is not a part of 'Palestinian/Arab land'. Guess it is no good teaching you what is fact as you will never accept it. You live in anothr world tony - not this one....... //You're never in any danger of that, axe, don't worry.// I can jerk my knee when I want to RY - now let me get back to my Daily Mail. jj's tongue was firmly planted in cheek when clumsily pounding out that post. Please point out where I have suggested that there is some kind of conspiracy by jews to supress the memory of other genicides. The people who have taken a dislie to me are those I wouldn't P on if they were on fire. Please point out what you have accused me of and I will immediately apologise. I think it is quite disengenious of you or anyone to deliberately misinterprit anything I have said for some kind of silly preudo advantage. Point it out or perhaps you apologise for your offensive accusation. It's all Pakistans fault!! No... that's a bit harsh... It's all Ghandi's fault!!!!! No... that's a bit rough too... It's all America's Fault!!!!!!! Yes... that's acceptable. Ah-Mad-in-e-Jihad is a mouth piece for a vomit inducing Islamificationism. Dictatorial Theocracy sucks big time. This is a good start and the rest will be sorted out over time. "Fat greedy yanks give peanuts to dying children." Chashews, Macademia, walnuts, pecans etc....yummy...we'll get some cheese from France and... Albert can contribute his.. hate....we'll make a party of it. www.latimes.com/news... It's all about the uranium enrichment, thats why Iran turned down Russia's offer to supply the material for peaceful purposes. The only reason they would turn that down is if they wanted to divert that material for developing a nuclear weapon. Don't forget Iran purchased the plans for a nuclear weapon from the Pakistan scientist and has been purchasing the technology and parts in Europe for the last 5 years. Finally , I stolen Iranian document indicating the weapons program was shown to the Europeans this past fall and thats when the diplomacy started to get tough. I suspect that during the Security Council hearings we may hear more. Wait to see if there is peace. The most succesful peace process in near memory is Northern Ireland which wasn't done by reciprocating civilian deaths. This is just covering a plaster for a sinking ship It was probably a Hitler style take over with people voting for them, HAMAS increasing their power by force, regretting it afterwards. HAMAS do not = Palestinans and civilians should not be treated as such.Israelis response is supported by the Israelis whic is more worrying WHAT!!! You cant form a Nazi party in Austria! What the asdf are we going to do. Its the end of the world as we know it. We should all immediately form a Nazi Party in protest, even if we are not Nazis. How can civilisation survive without this freedome? Ive got a bad feeling about this. At least in our nations where it isnt sanctioned by the state, the victim has some recourse and can have some action taken. The women and children lost in the nations cannot speak out nor can their families. Human beings are bad all over but if the rule of law is that honor killing is acceptable it will happen with greater frequency and no consequences. So it really isnt the same. Sanctioning is just another way of approving. If you cant see the difference then you really are indoctrinated beyond hope. nologo: Since I have never been to Iraq, and since I have never had the "ear" of Saddam Hussein, and since I can't read people's minds, and since I am at the mercy of the information that the UN and all governments (not only the US government) toss my way, then I am obviously the victim of deceipt... lesson learned... Do remember that the discussion is about Kim Jong-mentally-il. Kim Jong-mentally-il has starved his people and instituted one of the most repressive regimes in the world. Keep in mind that negotiations with NK have been conducted through the good offices of the nations in the region; Red China, Japan, S Korea et.al. One might also consider the foreign policy successes of Madeleine Albright, none. And finally, both Albright and Kim Jong-mentally il are ugly and their mother's dress them funny. "However you are trying to wash your hands of that responsiblity by hiding behind a country of your citizenship which is not NATO, then let me assure you you have chosen a side of those who are quite comfortable with criminals as their allies, so that when criminals commit crimes, you would readliy go hysteric about the crimes and the criminals and forget the people who make criminals job easy..." Who should my allies be? Those who for whatever their faults may be try and help the people of Afghanistan such as the NATO or those like you for whom there will never be a reason strong enough not to attack children? An movement/cult with an idiology that finds the basest human actions and makes them their prized aims and goals, an idiology that has found a home within one of the major religions and scewed and twisted it to meet their hunger, passion and lusts for harming the weakest in the world. You are a prime example my friend of the threat that we in the world, whether Muslim, Christian, Jew or Buddhist, atheist or whatever, men, women and children face. A group of misfits who have been brainwashed to believe that it is ok to attack and sell children because their friends also do so and that makes it ok. In the west such people are found and and their rings smashed but in your world it is a task for "brave" men this attacking of the weak. I know who my allies should be. Unfortunately the poison that seeps from the Saudi desert poisons every well in the world and one day these "brave" men will have to face Real men and then they will be exposed as the evil weaklings that they are. Apologies I stand corrected. Breaking the Law no, just bending it. BBC World covered it this morning. India is a huge country and considering all the economic turmoil, I suspect the possibility of a depression is probably more on the minds of individuals. jews may not be the only ones who make insults to islaam, but jews often instigate the remarks and opinions by way of them using pressure groups to silence anti-jewish comments whilst promoting and funding anti-muslim, right wing neo cons in the media. But the thing is, with 1.5 billion muslims across about 60 muslim countries around the world, who cares what the jews think! they have a tiny bit of land in the middle east which is shrinking, and the rest they have is just space on our airwaves and in the papers! Double standards? The double standards are coming from the Islamic world. Wail and holler do they about being treated badly by the West and how they dont want to be portrayed as terrorists and as a watching world watches they burn down churches, kill Christians and dress up as suicide bombers calling for 9/11 attacks on Europe over a few cartoons... Well when it comes to ball posession and short quick precise passes the Italians produced a masterclass against the Germans with Andrea Pirlo simply outstanding. bronx... Perhaps our Euro friends are not familiar with the history of the world... It has been suggested, on numerous occasions, that our friends across the pond are taught from the "How to Maintain National Pride Post-European Explore, Conquer and Exploit Period" textbooks published by the official (and state funded) "European Revisionist History Textbook Corporation." Amerindians in Mexico are still screaming to be heard. They are usually found at the bottom of the Mexican social heirarchy. Sixty percent of the population of Mexico is "mestizo" (mixed Amerindian and EUROPEAN SPANISH blood), 30% claim to be PREDOMINATELY Amerindian, 9% are white (where did they come from?) 1% other. Mestizo, who have a great deal of EUROPEAN SPANISH pride, refer to the Mexican Amerindian derogatorily as "indio." Mexicans who claim the white Euros "stole" their land in the southern part of the US, are also guilty of having "white Euro" ancestors who stole land from their own ancestors (comical really--I wonder how their internal ancestral mix are able to cohabitate?). Historically, Spaniards born in Spain were the ruling class and highest on the social ladder... 2nd were Mexican-born Spaniards, 3rd were mestizo and last on the ladder were the "indios" and all others... After Mexico won their independence from Spain (after 3 centuries of Spanish rule), the "creole" (Spaniards born in Mexico) became the ruling class and highest on the social ladder... which is where they remain today... Furthermore, 95 - 98% of all Amerindians (indigenous peoples throughout the "Americas") were wiped out (European introduced diseases) during the European explore, conquer and exploit period--long before any European inhabitant of the "new world" started dreaming about independence from Europe. By comparison, very few indigenous people lost their lives after the US gained independence from Britain. We will take (and have taken) responsibility for our part. It has been far to convenient for the Europeans to blame everything on the "Americans" when they were the architects of the destruction of the Amerindian. Mommy! Albert called us fat and stupid! Last year the Charities Commission were presnted witha Panorama expose of how Interpal funding reached Hamas www.bbc.co.uk/presso... In 2003 the Commission investigated and cleared Hamas but admitted in 2006 in response to the programme that their orginal investigation hadn't been 'in-depth'. In the 2006 program they thanked the BBC for their new evidence and said they would re-investigate. I believe they are scared to investigate. Hence, their is a link between Hamas and Interpal according to 2006 BBC programme. Indeed Sarah, indeed. Wonderfully and articulately put. It comes as no surprise that you are on the fast track to becoming a senior executive at Speed & Co. I'm guesing you don't understand it either. Or do YOU think Johnny's saying (or has said) that the poor in the third world are happy? P.S. Helpful hint: Have some meat behind your invective if you want it to work. North Korea has already fired a missile capable of reaching the US, they test fired one in 2003 that reached Alaska: times.hankooki.com/l... The Flying Spaghetti Monster is greater than ALL of us! TravelGal619 My apologies, you should google `the great world debate'. The `the' bit is important. J "And when that stopped we had the Balkan Wars. Swings and roundabouts.........." And now you have some religious types detonating themselves on public transport and riotng for weeks at a time in your streets. It certainly makes Europe an exciting place to raise a family, doesn't it? Finn, that's just the alcohol, I don't drink, I should take it up, I hear oblivion is wonderful. For the hundredth time, they were NOT jailed 'for speaking their minds' they were jailed for inciting others to kill people. And incidentally their own speech comprised of threatening with violence OTHER people who might wish to exercise free speech. That's an act of intimidation others into silence, not of universal free speech. It's not 'free speech' for A to say to B that if B draws a cartoon B should be killed. It's simply an incitement to murder, designed to suppress the free speech of OTHERS. That's the sort of veiled threat we have become very used to hearing in Britain. Large numbers of the British public have tired of it, because one set of dark mutterings is followed by another. The cartoon protests here took place in a country where the media and government had NOT published the actual cartoons, in case of more outraged Muslims. The response of the people in question was not to say “thank you for your consideration,” but to go out calling for our beheading, annihilation, extermination etc, anyway. That is to say, whether one appeases or confronts such people they will always make angry threats. That’s why it is better to meet them head on. If these cases had not been brought - and the authorities only did so after massive public anger - then the next such protest would almost certainly have resulted in a huge riot and deaths. If it were to have reached that stage, then you and the other cheerleaders for the cartoon protesters here - would have had to grasp that ‘provoking’ an angry minority is as nothing, in terms of danger, compared to provoking an angry majority. What on earth your own purpose is in trying to stir the pot, I don't know. Yes - but how? We have a leader who has said he wants the complete destruction of a country - who is trying to undermine democracy in another country and supplying technology which is killing british troops into the bargain - and we understand giving refuge to a range of terrorists - the question you should be asking is what is the UN going to do about it It's not a lie, azania. Here is the transcript of Saeed al-Sahaf's threat to use unconventional weaponry; transcripts.cnn.com/... Translation is that Musharraf's enemies are just some poor peasants in bajore agency. The general is as incompetent as the president Bush. Its just the circumstances that have made these two cartoons the most important people in the world. Welcome to Taliban Land. You can trun yor clocks back 5 hours and your calendar back 500 years 9 year old Mubashar Ali hanged himself, while re-enacting Hussein's hanging. www.news24.com/News2... How awful. Somehow, I imagine this wasn't the sort of martyr Saddam might have wanted. This is what I "submitted to Have Your Say": The North Koreans don't need the bomb for protection because they already have China as an ally. Having the bomb serves as a deterrence against US military involvement should Kim Jong Il start to press his expansionist aims in the region. This also explains why the North Korean government are so keen to promote news of the test. A nuclear exchange remains unlikely but the probability of conventional conflict in the Korean peninsula has definitely increased. Of course it didn't get published (I hate "Fully Moderated" - a.k.a. HYS censorship mechanism). But with only 500 characters there's plenty of stuff that didn't get expounded on. Kim Jong Il's frustration is that he can't use his massive army without incurring a US military response. But the bomb implies massive US casualties up front - I doubt if the US Congress would have backed the invasion of Iraq if they'd've known it meant 3,000 dead. It's only that the casualties have been incurred over a few years that has numbed their power to shock the US population. Intelligence from post-1991 Iraq indicated that Saddam didn't think he was wrong to have invaded Kuwait, just that he should have waited to acquire the bomb first. Of course China is unhappy with KJ-I but they would still probably stand by NK in the event of a military incursion by others. I also doubt they would actually attack NK in the event that Pyongyang precipitate a conflict (i.e. invade SK). I think there is certainly a charge to answer. I would like to know, for instance, what danger a two year old baby possibly posed. Among other things. If this is fascism then it isn't too bad. And the millions of immigrants waiting for citizenship in the US apparently agree with me. As for the Department of Homeland Security, every polls shows Americans think they are doing a good job. I think we can only laugh at a discussion started by someone who reads the word "Iraq" and thinks "Iran". You can use Wikipedia safely as a source if you are already an expert in the field. Then you can see if the article you are using has been edited by people who know about what they write. Also good articles will cite sources which you can check out. To imrove the quality standards, wikipedia selects good articles and has an internal peer review system to give the best articles the ''Featured Article'' label. In this peer review one only looks if the article is well written. For cientific articles tis is not adequate. Recently they have started a scientific peer review process by external scientists for these articles. There was a BBC Timewatch programme in 1992 about Operation Gladio. It is available of you look for it. It seems a significant proportion of Baader-Meinhof, ETA, Red Brigade and IRA bombs were planted by NATO Special forces. Bloody, fascistic, self-harming theatrics to excuse clamp-downs on left-wing political movements. Key link - en.wikipedia.org/wik... Di Panna, "Palestinians blowing up civilians, Israelis firing missiles at homes, lots of death and destruction... just another day in the Middle East!" Do you suppose the UK were "uncivilised barbarians" during the WW2? What about the NATO operation in Kosovo - were you "uncivilised barbarians" there too? In Iraq? Despite years of international travel, Chalabi had never encountered an extradition request or arrest warrant issued by the Jordanian government. His bank went bust (its claimed everyone eventually got their money back) - he may be a crook but you base your accusations on the findings of a Jordanian military tribunal. His bank Petra was the only Jordanian bank which would not help Saddam during the 1980-88 war with Iran. So when it was over its claimed Petra suffered the consequences. Saddam had a lot of influence in Jordanian policy at that time. tony There is no law that says the UN workers cannot enjoy themselves and have to live on $5 a day just because thats what the average employed palestian is earning. Tell me if your naighbor drives a ferrari because he can afford it you and most others drive a small cheap car do you do destroy your niaghbors car because its not right he has such extra vagant living. Your way of thinking seems to be if somebody is richer than you then they have no right to enjoy that money because your not as rich as them and if they do then they should be attacked you would have done great under uncle Joe Stlins Soviet Union LMAO This is the CAUSE and EFFECT of apartheid racist Iran. `I have no idea what that means, but it sounds delightfully kinky ' Sarah !!, (desade or otherwise) It was the word `delightful' which struck me. What an interesting way to divert a boring thread - congratulations to you and Limbo - only joking - I valued highly your contributions to this thread - but have lost my bet ! Yours Le Marquis !! I fear there are hundreds if not thousands of Iraqis who had been physically/,mentally abused by the coalition forces. It takes a lot of faith to believe that 200k+ coalition forces don't have it in them to teach these "uncivilised brown people" a lesson or two. You of course, like the Saddam apologists will find a million ways to justify the unjustifiable and paint the coalition forces as angels delivering freedom to those "ungrateful brown people". Lol - you too ? Was a good way to get food after the pubs had closed. Message posted by stuart davison I do not make false allegations - you are doing just that! What happened to Oona was disgraceful. Galloway has done nothing to prevent the rise in anti-semitism which people like him whip up whenever there is a flashpoint in the ME. Galloway is clever and careful what he says but have you ever cared to think about who he chooses for his allies in Respect. Read The Islamist. When 300,000 people are slaughtered for not being muslim it is fair to refer to it as genocide. The UN did. Also, he minimalised it by referring to it merely as a "conflict". He did not just disagree with the Iraq war -other also did. He crossed a boundary in his usual bellicose, aggressive and war mongering manner. I always supported the miners because of what Thatcher was doing to them but hated Scargill. He took them on a hopeless strike and he did not call for a ballot. How democratic was that? Two sides of the same coin. Well how far should one go back? Why stop at the palestinians? Israel was orif=ginally a jewsih land. Pakistan was originally Hindu. Australia was origianlly Aboriginal. Shall we expel all the Australians? Of course not! The Indians were evicted from what is now Pakistan. It is not an excuse - it is a ay of demonstrating that people use Israel as a way of legitimacising heir jew hatred as they do not care about the many other flashpoints all over the world or miimalising them. I was not even inferring that. You are suggesting that everyone is against hem and that the govt are at war with them. Nonsnense. I see this is you favourite word! They have been under attack for many years and as i have already stated Israel was populated by refugess not allowed anywhere else. If you are to insist on it being a settler state then blame Balfour who wanted rid of the jews. You can't have your cake and eat it. You are a victim of your own prejudices. The ME is not by any means he worst tragedy afflicting humankind. Did you read the link missipp1? Aziz denied making the claims Coleman stated. Hamas is incharge, but you are not allowing hamas to take charge... it is interesting how everyone is only interested in genocide when Israel?Jews/Zionists?America can be blamed.... Competitors and spectators alike must stand up and take some personal responsibility – for the suffering that these games will cause. By taking part and spectating – they condone the actions of the Chinese authorities. But those most to blame for this suffering – are those in the Olympic Committee who voted for the 2008 Olympic games to be held in China, Including the 19 years before occupation? Please explain how Israel could've forced Jordan and Egypt to give the Palestinians the land they ostensibly fight for now. P.S. Maybe one day the two countries could merge. If it does happen it will ONLY happen out of peaceful coexistence with the many years' time required for both sides to heal. Israel will not be allowed to keep the West Bank and Hamas will not be allowed to fulfill your dream. "Your only concern is whether he said "praise jesus"?? point was that all religions inspire "extremisim" - including christianity that you are so fond of". My concern is twofold. The first is that you lied in attempt to make a point of some sort. The second is that you equated the bombing of a building with the murder of hundreds of kindergarten students in Breslan, Russia. Both are inexcusable. "Even if the phrase was never documentated - doesnt change the fact that christianity was the source - which was the point of the statement". Then that is what you say, not lying in order to defend the indefensible. Do you really believe you can make statements like that and get away with it? "Is that clear enough transplanted canadian? or do you need to consult your priest?" Born and raised in Canada, Formula1_fan, and never felt the need for any religious leader. But despite this lack of religious instruction, I still don't lie. Hi Grant, Well I don’t really think you need to do a tour of Choeung Ek or Tuol Sleng Museum to bring you enlightenment about the evils of Socialism. But of course I assume for you any romantic view of Socialism had ran its course by the time you left adolescence behind. That said there are quite a few Euro lefties on this BBC message board that should spend a few hours sitting in the brick cells in the classrooms of Tuol Svay Prey High School. Maybe that experience outside the university lecture hall would bring them back to the light. It’s pretty hard to wave the flag for Socialism after standing in front of a pyramid of 8,000 human skulls at Choeung Ek. If you are feeling up to it but make sure its not before you eat google “Tuol Sleng Museum” and/or “Memorial Stupa Choeung Ek”. But don’t do it on a day you are feeling at all depressed because it is not for the squeamish. It is Socialism at it’s worse and that is really saying something. Warmest Regards, Smoker I lived in the middle east for 6 years and i know very well what sharia law is. Undemocratic, intolerant, dictatorship by a bunch of bearded weirdos. These guys take our tolearance for weakness and use it as a cover for their insidious power move in the west. Islam is like a cancer and needs to be cut out. YOu can print cartoons of the sauds and george in bed, and noone will mind, you can print ben laden in bed with goerge and noone will mind. But print cartoons of Mohammad and campare it with printing anne-and hitler people will still mind, because you are comparing apples with oranges. My Pleasure.......If we all shared what we know everybody would know everything about every body/thing.....A God Concept? Is the Board into Virtualisation.....5g/6g...? Is h3g3, a Government Hosted Artificial Intelligence?? Or should it be? 20-year old whisky? I wonder how good it will taste? Mmmmmm. I have a Pakistani co-worker who is returning from vacation. Maybe I'll have him bring back a bottle. The Swiss model then...allow the Portugese immigrants to clean the toilets but boot them out back to France and Italy every evening? If the native population is unwilling to do certain jobs...that is both at the top and at the bottom of the chain...then immigrants fill that void... There only that many administrative roles available... There are plenty of people with degrees, but very very few people able to think for themselves...its tragic...nobody wants to be a trader any more...nobody likes the responsability...they all want to be little administrators who (if they are good) can spend 40 years at work without every once having to make a decision... They could be lying.......................mind you - that president ahmadinejihad is a lovely guy and would never do such a thing. If you think he is a great guy Lucilla we have nothing to worry about then do we? Funny how he is scared to show his nuclear plans though. I wonder why? J.J. Don't feel that you need to hold back. Speak your mind! "Oh dear, Simon21 comes onto these boards and talks about the 50 million dead of World War II, and blames it on Christians. Fact: Not all of the combatants were Christians. Fact: Six million of the victims were Jews. People of all religions and none fought on both sides. It wasn't a religious war." Is that so. And that would be because it doesn't suit you to characterise it as such. The hatred that saw the jews put to death that had nothing to do with centuries of christrainanti-semitism? "nd when it comes to Islamic Jihad, he obviously ignores the 270 million plus non-Muslims killed in total by Islamists simply for being infidels." Islamist, moslems, jihad, infidels (a latin catholic word but hey lets stretch a point) can I respectfully ask if you know the meaning of any of them? You claim Jesus is not the son of God that’s pretty insulting to Christians. That didn't seem to worry Britain and Europe when it faced conquest by the Nazis, when it needed loans and donations to rebuild the continent, when it needed protection from Stalin. I'd sooner these people as allies than the sort of people the far-left associate with... "If the Catholic Church is being criticized for its cover-up of the abuse of women and children, for example, then that is the same motivation as racism to you. It springs from the same source. The fact that people might be legitimately outraged, disappointed or otherwise critical of this behaviour is of secondary importance to you. First, the racism behind such charges must be dealtwith" But catholics are not characterised as a race as moslems are. Judaism is a religion - does that mean the nazis were only making a religious judgement? One needn't be a conservative to have a regard for language, words and their meanings and, yes, technically they are very correct." Except that conservbatives see moselms as a race and frequnetly use the anti-semetic language of the 1930s to criticise "Islam". This is why such criticism is frequently anti-semetic. "To not be allowed to be critical of others is surely a racist attitude. It suggests that these people are less than adults and must be treated with kid gloves, like children. " Criticism is one thing anti-semetism another. Are jews children because Grant et al will not criticise them? "The fact is that every person, society, culture and religion can be criticized and we should not withhold this criticism because we feel them to be inferior or immature. " But when this cricism as it does descends into racism and is fueled by hatred and ignorance ? Is Hitler's verbal "critiques" of judaism to be allowed? "Responding to legitimate criticisms of any group with charges of "racism" is probably the lowest form of debate, and denigrates further the group under discussion." Whereas to characterise people of a certain religion as belonging to some vast conspiratorial group all of whom think and feel the same is what? Enlightened debate? I'm a little 'under the weather ' today Ham Sandwich...sorry...I was just thinking about juicy pears...I don't have any...Yet...Harvest Season...juicy stuff. Apple picking etc. www.usapears.com/fil... www.usapears.com/pea... I thought the American-led sanctions were the cause of most of the deaths. Why am I not surprised at the Democrats being blatantly politically partisan and opportune over this deal. Sitting back and criticising Bush for sitting back and letting them there nasty Arabs from Dubai buy into American ports. It stands to reason it would undermine security doesn’t it? You would never get Democrats agreeing to a thing like that would you? No US security would be safe with them. Hillary has certainly been quick of the mark – she has made her opposition clear. But if these Arabs are so untrustworthy - why are Gore and Carter and various other Democrats, and of course good old Bill – so happy to associate themselves with them? www.canadafreepress.... Well maybe it’s not quite so straightforward after all – but maybe all our Democrat supporting friends on this board can explain it to us. Myself I like the last sentence – talk about shades of Tessa! It's just absurd, MN. Nothing to do with you. You may mock young lady, but our Mars Explorer made a bloody bigger hole in the Martian landscape than yours, so there. I heard they're gonna get married. Stuart, just tell me what he meant, stop stalling. heh, I usually post on the football forums so I'm not used to such frank and honest replies You are probably right, the "Thank You" video is a good thing, even if a little unorthodox. It certainly makes a stark contrast with most of the images we see coming from that region. I'll be interested to see how this campaign goes when it is released on the tv, I'd imagine Mr. Blair for one will be delighted with it. It doesnt really matter "who" sprayed the graffitti. The fact that the person/child who sprayed the graffitti chose graffitti as their outlet shows that they are immature WUMs and have zero powerbase beyond cowardly spray painting words on a wall. A person who sprays graffitti mostly shows that they are a loner, a rogue, a loser in life whose only outlet, cry for attention comes through defacing private property. They are essentially no different than many message board posters - they just may or may not have access to a computer/internet. posted by zeldalicious <<<<The African nations have been going to war and killing each other for centuries>>>. I can’t dispute the fact that the continent I grew up in is in a state of constant turmoil and I sometimes wonder if the problem will ever be solved .But then again so is the Middle East and many Muslim countries …. ian, I'll be delighted to oblige, the moment after you accept that you tried, abysmally, to defend what some (including me) are now euphamistically calling, "a joke" (I've noted with interest, intrigue and suspense that you have yet to label Palin's comments "a joke"), and an apparently sexist one at that. No doubt you think it a zionist conspiracy? Just as your government wants you to believe. It stops you from noticing their own failings. Oh! excuse me. I thought you started your response by trying to wriggle out of the Venezuelan import claim. And if wasn't central to your point why did you introduce it in the first place and then try to defend it? So anyway, what was your central point? That Boris is going to get rid of city hall planners? Seeing as he's reluctant to find them lucrative things to do, perhaps he should! Or was it that subsidies to the middle class can never be justified? Or that despite Chavez policies being equivalent to policies our own governments pursue with little or no criticism, we should condemn him anyway? You'll have to make your points a little more explicit and your factual errors less visible! "Adopting that style undermines whatever quality there might otherwise have been in you post. Oh, hang there wasn't any quality. My mistake". Yes, it is your mistake. What i find fascinating about this is that it was only Wendy who addressed the issues directly, even if they were Wendyisms. The Eurolefties, meanwhile, either refused to read them at all or sidestepped by offering their tired old opinions of the war should never have been fought in the first place. How very dull. Wendy and her colleagues will beat you Eurolefties any day of the week. And war is divisive, huh? Whoda thought? When will you give up tony... 9/11 is a lost cause.<<< I will give up when I see apartheid israel leave the W.Bank and E.Jerusalem taking with them those undesired COLONIZERS. Truth hurts! If we want to make a list of things most Muslims don't understand we can start with irony, but then we could move right along to human rights, democracy, economics,and public education, all the way down to areas such as road construction and building codes. You are the one having a love afair with the notion that the British have a love affair with WW2. In fact I doubt it is being taught in schools (exept possibly to misrepresent the Dresden Raid) and few schoolchildren could tell you anything coherent about WW2. err.. is there any way the Germans could have denied their past? quattro There is no EFFECT without a CAUSE,such is the law of nature. Israel is occupying the Palestinians lands,killing its innocent people,keeping them surrounded by apatheid ugly Walls,jobless,without food,without hope,and still you blame the Palestinians? Say ENOUGH TO BLOODSHED! ahh you say that now, i dont believe a word of it!!!! "The man has a 29% approval rating for god sake." He's right up there with the President of the United States. "And that he believes all Muslim males have no self control and driven to uncontrollable sexual urges at the merest hint of a female form or a strand of her hair." This is probably more cultural than religion, but has anyone been to North Africa, in Tunisia or Morocco? The harrassment of women there is absolutely disgusting. I'm talking on the streets, beaches, restaurants, cafes, markets, and malls. Anywhere in public, men are relentless in pursuing anything female, especially European-looking women. It made a dream vacation entirely unpleasant for my wife and other female members of our party. Two Danish women we met cut short their trip in Marrakesh after getting tired of all the groping, leers, comments, stalking, etc. Censorship isn't just by a government jobsworth with a blue pen, Grant. Thanks for your support! If I can be forgiven for slightly hijacking this thread for a second, Childline is currently in danger of having to close down its nighttime service because of lack of funding. Of course nighttime is its crucial time. I'm trying to get together a charity book deal to raise some funds, but am afraid that it will be too late. If anyone is looking for a good charity to support (I know, I know, there are so many good charities to support) please consider Childline. </commercial break> "Any idea of where Loach stands on Darfur, for example, or Uganda, or Tibet?" I don't know where you "stand" on those issues, Grant, and I hear a hell of a lot more on your weltanschauung than Loach's. "Forget the USA, we want to join winners, not loosers". And which countries waiting in are the "winners"? This response demonstrates that the EU, to many, is a hodgepodge collection of countries more determined to be anti American than to have any long term plans and goals encouraged and supported by the electorate. The United States certainly doesn't feel threatened by the EU. Why would they? The US response to these shenanigans, like most of the non European world, is largely one of indifference. If Europeans can convince themselves that they are winners and the American people "loosers" then they can believe that and join whatever organization they want that will encourage their self esteem. Meanwhile the rest of the world can only sit back and watch with amusement, and a wee bit of apprehension for the long term. "an unfortunate accident in his childhood when someone dropped an iron on his face or something." Not one of those Palestinian "workshops" was it? I heard business was "booming". puydedome, I think we all know that the existence of Holocaust denial in the penal codes of Austria and Germany is solely down to the legacy of Nazi rule. Basically it was enshrined in law to prevent Germans or Austrians seeking to argue that the Third Reich was not responsible for the atrocities both in the Reich and in territories (1939 - 1945) posted by DreidelSpin You misread me. I was referring to '[Israeli civilians] the enemy killed [with rockets]'. I'm sure you can tell me how many Israelis have been killed or injured after 18 months or so of the 'bombardment'. Let's see how it compares in the end to the Israeli death toll, post-'solution'? THe situation in Ulster is very different, it isn't about Scots and Irish; for one thing the settlers were a mixture of Scottish Presbyterians and mainly English Anglicans, there have always been sizeable movements of populations between Ireland and Scotland, indeed the Scots originated in Scotland (true that the Scots have a large amount of Norse ancestry, but so do the Irish) and if you look at Ulster's populations although mostly the Presbyterians are of Scottish ancestry, there has been a lot of mixing and many Roman Catholic's of Scots ancestry and Protestants of long standing Irish ancestry - it isn't a Scots-Irish issue, there are also no ancestral qualifications to joining any of the denominations involved - since the creation of the state of Eire those perpetuating violence have mostly been trying to fight for an all Ireland Marxist State in opposition both to the State of Eire and to not just the Unionists in Ulster but also many nationalists too, more recently the violence in Ulster has focused against members of their own communities and is mere gangsterism and hooliganism having nothing to do with politics or religion. Interesting...didn't the people elect an islamic government who stated that they would carry on the relationship with Israel which was started by a previous government? Do you do any research or is it easier just to make things up? Naz, Hamas are proscribed terrorists by USA and EU - fact. You won't be going to court. The BBC will for publishing it. It only take a complaint from the public to the police that the BBC have published encouragement to a terrorist organisation contrary to The Terrorist Act 2006 and the BBC are in trouble. By not removing Stuart Davidson's post they are on thin ice. I just don't understand all this bellicose talk of how tough Iran is and how if the coalition failed in Iraq then it can't make a success of disarming Iran's nuclear weapons. Israel just showed that with a few planes it can scupper Syria's nuclear plans. It did teh same with Saddam's ambitions. With a few planes and missiles the coalition of Europe, Israel and the USA would devastate Iranian ambitions in a an hour. All you need is stealth and big bombs. There would be no ground invasion. It would be an air war. Syria's air defences and radar just switched itself off when Israel attacked. No retaliation was met. My guess is that Iran is all talk and no substance, and the secret services know it. No-one will allow them to reach a point of no return. Xavier, you're very right. I think I'd take a million sonic booms over being ripped to pieces by flying nails. If this was a fight it would've been stopped.... this is a rout...a brutal beating...Atothez (Az) is clearly in the wrong weight class. Let'm go Smoker.....TKO No way! There's been loads of studies that show that regional English dialects in the UK far outstrip the US. In the US people like mistressofmydomains parents were more mobile and learnt a more harmonious English. They lost a few 'u's on purpose to make themselves different. The number of words in common use in Britain is huge. "If the government is corrupt shouldn't there be some oversight rather than have it continue?" Yes. But how does that have any bearing on the issue? There is nothing to stop that oversight being subject to democratic control. "If people are willing to fight and die for democracy, surely trying to contain a corrupt leadership through changes in the bureaucracy might be more acceptable than replacing an entire government." It might be and it might not. It would depend on what those changes meant for people whose democracy is involved. "Are you only willing to accept perfect democracies throughout the world, Hart?" Your position is ridiculous Grant since a willingness to 'accept' imperfect democracy should never replace a preference for perfect democracies or surpress criticism of imperfect ones. "If only you Eurolefties would complain as much about dictatorships the world might advance at a more rapid pace than it is at the moment and those people living under these corrupt government might attain peace and prosperity some time sooner than they are now." That is nothing more than a feeble, generalising and hypocritical strawman from you Grant, who is very selective about your criticism of dictatorships based on your own small minded and bigotted prejudices. Your arguements might have more merit if you could demonstrate that you have the least clue about functioning democracy. However on these boards you have demonstrated time and again that prattle well beyond your understanding. "The Eurolefties are always complaining about any advances in democracy, while insisting on it for themselves." More baseless tripe from you Grant and risible in the fact that the OP is about the lack of an advance in democracy. "Interestingly, that's under threat on your home threat also." that's nothing more than a fantasy of yours Grant. General You've probably eard this but worth repeating re your post : A bear a lion and a chicken were talking. `When I growl the whole forest trembles' said the bear. `When I roar the whole jungle is in fear' said the lion. `So what' said the chicken, `when I cough the whole planet wets itself' J Anti-semite rabble rouser do you have a life beyond these boards? The presence of you and your ilk is a detraction. That goes for the zionist spin doctors haunting these boards as well. All the genuine posts get pushed aside with this nonsense. tonysilver If the pals dont stop complaining and blowing themselves up and join the real world make serious compromises and give up violence forever then soon enough they will be joining the dinosaurs as one of those creatures that lived on the earth once but are now extinct children might read about them we might see some of their bones in museums but we will never see a living being they will be history and nothing else while Israel and its jewish supporter worldwide who it it united with will go from strengh to strenegh first the ME next the world Maybe you should think about supporting the jews because they are on the winning side Mao killed somewhere around, what, 40 or 50 million Chinese people. Are you sure he said "swim"? For gawd's sake! Haven't you ever seen South Park? It has Jesus hosting a cable show called 'Jesus and Pals' and one episode where Moses shoots lasers out of his eyes. matches is on FIFA's agenda. Unbelievable. edition.cnn.com/2005... I suppose it has nothing to do eith Blatter being Swiss. A dump? And what people are these? And what dump? Do you perhaps mean a Ghetto? where living conditions are so unbearable, little food, little shelter (and the shelter that is left is systematically destroyed), little to no health care? DUMP! I cannot believe the crap and the constant dehumanization of Palestinians on this BOARD. I am an unabashed zionist and proud supporter of Israel. I have in the past had two significant events in my life where I interacted with muslims and arabs. In one I worked for a year with Feisal eighteen inches to my right and Muhammad eighteen inches to my left. Both were of Indian extraction, one being Pakistani and the other Indian. The other experience was where I worked for six months in a small company that was entirely staffed by lebanese, both christian and muslim. The two owners with whom I worked closely everyday were a lebanese christian and a muslim syrian. With just about all of these people I participated in completely engaging but civil debate. Muhammad and I had a lot of fun as he was a huge cricket fan and taught me the ins and outs, but he was apolitical. Feisal was an observant muslim of a liberal sect. We traded a lot of details about life in a mosque in comparison to life in a synagogue. He was a bona fide genius I think, and he also opened my eyes to issues vis-à-vis the muslim world and the U.S.A. The syrian was a brilliant man extremely well versed in contemporary history. He had me really working hard and I had to re-examine a lot of previously conceived notions I had. By the way, all without exception were western educated; not necessarily in western institutions but rather in the western tradition. I like to think I am an intellectually honest person. I invite you to travel the link to my posts to examine my arguments. This has been my experience: I have met here some rabid pro-zionists whose posts I personally find embarrassing. The rabid anti-zionists seem to be an order more vitriolic. I can sense the blind hatred. Also, they are easily frustrated with the simplest critical thinking. There really is no debate here at all. It is all quips based on self-enforcing and cross-referenced hate propaganda. To even question its veracity brings immediate indirect fire as opposed to an actual response. Based on my own reading and research there is certainly a palestinian narrative of merit. To say otherwise, in my opinion, is nonsensical. I have participated in excellent debate and exchange of information here on these boards. A fair number of times I have been challenged by posters' comments that required me to stop and re-examine my thinking. Always these have been alleged facts that I was not previously aware of and I spent the time researching the issue and verifying the facts. A Case on point is my discussion with Ed regarding water usage in Israel/P-Territories. Without exception every post that I felt had merit and that I fact-checked did not pan out. Some citations were to reputable pro-Palestinian sources that I had to delve a lot deeper into the primary source data (UN reports and the like). A lot was just unsubstantiated myth mongering devoid of any sources at all. Some others were simply foolish. I remember one citation that was to a headline to the effect of "Israel - [some atrocity]". I tried clicking the headline but there was no link, no links anywhere on the page for that matter. It was just a list of made up headlines. I very strongly notice that all of the pro-palestinian myth mongering is cross-referenced. Each "argument" refers to other self-documenting resources that refer back in a web of cross-references. Then, of course, there is Pallywood and fauxtography, the arab/muslim art of invented videos and photographs. Finally, there are out-and-out lies that are apparent on their face, ranting really. I did my own research into the apparently endless list of Israeli atrocities. I found several clear acts of improper military behaviour, but only a few. I found some of unacceptable civilian behaviour towards palestinians. Then there is the government based acts, an example of which is uprooting olive orchards. Finally, there are actual war crime type atrocities, for example, the 800-900 arab deaths in this category during the 1948 war as explained by the "new" historian Benny Morris. Now, do I mean that palestinians are not killed--not at all. In my view, the vast majority of so-called atrocities, war crimes, genocide, ethnic cleansing, animal behaviour, etc. ad nauseam, is related to the palestinian insurrection (Intifadah) in the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank and the Israeli attempts to manage and quell the insurrection. These actions fall into a few categories: 1. Clearing a designated military reserve of protestors 2. Quelling insurrection (rock throwing, etc.) 3. Immediate retaliation to armed attacks 4. Pro-active attacks by the IDF to degrade and destroy palestinian military capabilities 5. Ongoing border screening In other words, I don't deny the suffering of individual palestinians. I both sympathize and empathize with the pain and suffering. The two peoples are at war. The IDF will make every effort to avert collateral damage, but civilians will get hit when a Qassam stockpile is hit. Palestinians have to wait hours at the border, but every parcel, truck, ambulance, and person must be physically checked for suicide vests and ordinance smuggling. Only about 5% of palestinian attackers get through. That means for every bombing in Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem, 19 others were thwarted or caught at the border. For better or worse, until a final settlement is reached, Israel is responsible for the populations in the territories and for order and security. Violent insurrection cannot be allowed lest anarchy take hold. As part of the occupation, certain areas are classified by military authorities. The justness of it or not is not my point. When a soldier with a rifle under orders to clear the area tells you to do so, one takes his life into his own hands to disobey. When Qassam rockets are fired into Israel, you can bet your grand-mother's pearls that a bigger rocket is coming back your way. For that matter, if a palestinian fires rockets next to a civilian home, he knows that the return fire may hit that home as well. He ought to take responsibility for his choice. What are eight year olds doing throwing stones at tanks intermixed with adults armed with assault rifles. All of this is ongoing military operations between two peoples at war. They are not acts of genocide or ethnic cleansing or anything like that. With some exceptions, I find most pro-palestinian posters fall into one single pattern: a two or three sentence post of unsubstantiated outrageous claims. When one calls them out for evidence, I have gotten the run-around as I described above, or just non-answers. I have been engaged in serious debate by pro-palestinian supporters on these boards in only a small minority of instances. I find that this profound penchant for dishonest debate is not so much acts of actual dishonesty, rather it is part and parcel of the overriding arab social characteristic of face-saving, i.e. self-deception. That is, as far as I can tell, so long is face is saved publicly, all is well. Prime examples of this are astounding claims of military victory in the face of catastrophic losses and on the verge of military annihilation. By and large I find the scales of dishonest debate tips acutely toward the pro-Palestinian side. ......THE VOICE OF REASON. LISTEN TO HIM AND YOU'll HEAR THE VOICE! qubal I know they have said its not economical for US airlines to put RPG defense systems on their aircraft but have they decided to put air marshels on all flights internal as well as international or is that something still being considered based on cost? makes you wonder what rights the non-Jews who inhabit(ed) the palestine area for 1000 years or more should have now. most were driven out in the last century. there ias always the aliya for any Jews who want to go to their homeland ? Boydavey/Greywolf/formerusername why are you bothering replying with your mushy propagandist nonsense to me ? give it a rest eh ? So they won 4-0 but how bad were the Ukraine?. Did anyone watch the game?. Caught bits of it on the radio at work and they had fits over the sending off of the Ukrainian player. Referee is an idiot and all that. yes, send in the immigrants Whites in the minority in 2050 ? D-Ream 'Things can only get better' No reason. Might lighten the mood. 'German Chancellor Angela Merkel has warned Europe it faces an "historic failure" if it does not revive the deadlocked European constitution'. Chancellor Merkel makes a bold and perfectly valid point, however. Without agreement, there is and will be no European Union. No, I am a Kashmiri from Pakistani Occupied Kashmir, Pakistan has done nothing but looted and killed 40,000 innocent Kashmiris through Islamic Terrorism. And lets not forget Pakistan has handed over chunck of Pakistani Occupied Kashmir to China. Did the Pakistanis consult the Kashmiris? No. Ask any Afghan, how mych they like or trust Pakistan. Zero. People forget that under the Geneva Convention and universal laws on War Conduct it is perfectly acceptable to attack your enemy where they live, taking care to safeguard innocent people where possible. Targetted killings are acceptable to the West, as much as Jqack Straw likes to pretend that its only Israel who is not allowed to fo it. TArgetting Saddam at the start of the Iraq war was one such incident where the UK thought it acceptable to target Saddam In fact, the automobile continued rolling after all the shots were fired. See my post above on whether shooting at a driver can be considered a sensible way to stop a driver. Actually no. One may search far and wide and find occasional incidents where a 40,000 person strong police force in a city of 8 million with at least 1.5 million visitors every day commits excessive force. The reality is that the NYPD has a very good record of not using excessive force. And its record has improved over the years. What is lost in this debate save for my post, is that the NYPD will review and severely rebuke the officers as soon as the Federal Civil Rights actions are exhausted - whether the officers go to jail or not. The NYPD cannot begin its own action until the various prosecutions are complete. The NYPD has not supported the officers here. What statements it has made make clear it is leaning to finding the officers acted inappropriately. Perfectly true – and it was only at the insistence of Tony Blair that Britain entered Iraq. Tony wanted to be accepted as a member of the ‘rat pack’ and followed the U.S. blindly. He had ears only for the White House and would not listen to his MPs, Party members, or the British electorate. Iraq certainly was not a bed for terrorists before the invasion – but Tony and George ploughed that region and look at the deadly harvest Iraq and the world is now reaping. Quick question Pu- When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and made it obvious that he would go on to Saudi. In your opinion should the allies have sat back and left the other M.E. states to sort things out- "Do you just have candle light and fires in your abode" Not many, but the Japanese weren't just killing Americancivilians. They killed several million Chinese, over a million Indonesians, a million or so in French Indo-China, several hundred thousand in Burma and India. The atomic bombs ended Japanese resistance which saved millions of Japanese civilians from starvation and pointless deaths in a futile resistance. ------------------------------------------------ But it was america which atom bomb, noone says it was the world or the allies...America. A-bomb saves lives. Period..if it saved life during second world war, no need to even question how destructive it can be... there ya go Ruth, each of your rather bigoted points addressed within days of the democrats controlling the US Senate they have called for Troop Cuts within months hear is the link www.nytimes.com/2006... apparently the democrats also said during the mid term elections they ;would not cut and run' well it seems that they are doing the complete opposite no suprises there then Thats bull. And whats more you KNOW its bull. Its a symbol of their bigotry and with a very large minority of them it is a symbol of their allience with the terrorists. If its so needed why the hell dont they GET OUT of europe to wear it where its mandatory ? ''Ruth, what do you mean he hasn't addressed any of it.'' Whoops. Typo. that was intended as a question. ''I know because he's completely missed what I've said and presented a completely false interpretation.'' (I assume we're talking about message 203.) Rubbish. All he's trying to do is spell out his own opinions, and I fail to see how it's false, or irrelevant in a discussion the only aim of which seems to be to go round in circles talking about anti-semitism. I fail to see any particular direction in this discussion, least of all how it could ever have an end. That's a pattern I've noticed with much of your debates. The only reason I can tell for debating in such a way is that, as many people will attest, it gives you 'victories'. Well, not by my definition. There's more to debating than outlasting another poster. ''Well that's a pretty good guess. I won't address what he's said specifically because it's totally missing the point of what I've been talking about.'' There you go. You're not constructively replying to what your opponent has to offer. You're simply refusing to debate it on the grounds that you disagree. In place of actually debating, you spend the whole time demanding that you're opponent retracts what he's said. To bolster this demand, you force words into your opponent's mouth and claim he (or she- no male inadequacy here) is 'demonizing' you, and other such clap trap. ''That's an unsubstantiated statement on the back of a misrepresentation of what's being argued.'' That's his opinion, which he has inferred from what you have written. I have sympathy with his opinion. ''All of THIS (of yours) is avoiding MY points still on the table'' Sorry Ruth, I don't have a clue what your points are. You'll have to satisfy predatory lust with Anthony. ///Haesten, what exactly is your problem with gay people?/// I don't think Haesten - Has a problem with gay people. It's the other way round gays think people have to kowtow to them! And it is wholy unjustifiable. It has created grave tensions between ourselves and the honourable arabs. It has costed dear in lives and pain for the wonderful palestinians, that so many european jews were allowed to settle in their land. It has costed us dear in pure economic terms, when the arbs turned the taps in 1973, following the unanimous western backing of Israel in the october war of that year. The resulting recession was the worst the world had seen since the 30'ties , bringing the otherwise succesfull boom that have lasted more or less un-interrupted since the end of the second world war to an abrupt end. It made the prices go up 4 times, then salaries rose 4 times, with the inevitable result of a 4 times rise in inflation, when governments tried to cushion the crisis by taking on loans. Britain was very close to defaluting on its debts and being put under the administartion of the IMF. Some of these loans still runs today, albeit in a refinanced form. " bet that you don'teven know what a Colt SAA M1873 7.5" barrel is or come to that a Whichester M1894 Carbine. I doubt if you could tell a SAA M1873 apart from a Colt M1911".............................................I bet you don't know the difference between a wooden single rubber band firing pistol, and an exciting triple band 'blaster.' That's the point. You would assume that without treatment the host organism dies but it turns out that antibiotics are used in humans where the disease being treated is not life threatening but merely inconvenient and where, without treatment, the human would develop immunity to the disease, rather than the disease develop immunity to the treatment. In animals, antibiotics are used to increase yields and thus raise profits in the short term, even though the use of them gives future generations of farmers the problem of seeing their profits reduced to zero or less. Bwahaha!! A former US Marine is incapacitated by a domestic cat!! Surely he should have lightening reactions and be hard as nails? - Pathetic Also if he claimed the injury cost him £10k in medical bills and £6k in loss of income, why was he compensated for £60k? The holy land.The land that is holy yet it has caused so many deaths, that to call it should be called unholy now. are all Danes still manic depressives ? You made the claim, the onus is on you to back it up or be a man and admit you made it up. If you want to make me look stupid, then post your evidence. If you want to continue to make you look stupid, don't. P.S. If I knew it to be true, I wouldn't have challenged you in the first place. Would Robert Mugabe accept white, professional help? If he were to say yes, then I am sure there are some very competent administrators, well able to set them back on their feet again, who would love the opportunity to visit the country/old country again. "No! That will end when those zionists learn some DIPLOMACY and the Palestinian People get their tolen lands back!" which diplomacy are we talking about, the palis lack of... or the israelis lack of? Curious, what the hell is going on in your own country right now with these idiots who have taken to the streets? I knwo you think of them as brothers and sisters but if I was you I would grab a good strong baseball bat and explain things to them. Manchester Me, so you think the Jewish groups fighting against colonial rule in British occupied Israel were not "liberation groups"? I suppose you would think that the restance against Nazi Occupation of Europe were not resistance groups? In your book, only Islamofacists could be "freedom fighters"- like Hitlers lot! Richard Reed did so when the seucrity was this tight. Those of us who travel often, know that at the airports its becomes impossible to carry anything without it being discovered by the x-ray machines. The security at the miami airport must have been pretty lousy,which led the marshals to shoot. Because nomatter how people defend this killing, everyone knows that you cannot even take a paper clip inside the plane without it being discovered through x-ray machine, and you mean the guy managed to take a bomb? Its a joke. "Do you have any idea what this fool is saying, Cuban Pete?" The reference to Israeli training of Kurdish forces is obviously lost on a Fox News fan. It seems that a username of 'talmudist' is acceptable even though it would be offensive to Jews. Therefore, since the BBC allows it I am sure they will allow me to call myself 'koranist'. Smoker Surely you are not quite as daft as your message. The Americans want to control the oil to stop anyone else controlling it, in particular their enemies. Thats why they are in alliance with Saudi ARabia, and is why their worst nightmare would be if Islamist extremists were to take control of Saudi Arabia. The small states in the Gulf are either in alliance with America, or have American bases there, or both. You see America has to make sure it can get oil, and on favourable terms. Thats whats meant by controlling the oil. There is also the question of dollars vs euros. Thats a question I'll leave alone for the minute. China is an expanding market for oil and American does want to make sure China doesnt get all the worlds oil, for it would mean the Yanks couldn't drive around in their big humvees, and that would never do. Cheers. Nice try, and i'll give you credit for that. But none of this addresses the points raised in the original article which prompted this debate, nor does it address any of the subsequent points raised. My history and who i am should be of little interest to you. Just address the arguements raised or move on to another thread. But there is no need for you to get personal with me. I'm not interested in the least who you actually are and i'd appreciate the same disinterest from you. //Michael Moore is a transparent distorter of evidence /// I'm sure he uses the evidence to suit whatever personal expression he wishes to make. Thats' only been going on for about, what, the whole history of the human race! Besides, I would suggest that more flagrant distortions of evidence have been seeping out of the White House and Number 10 for the last 8/9 years. Indeed, and worse, the absolute manafacture of "evidence" has been seeping out. As far as I can see, if we're getting into a moral bunfight and distortions of evidence, Moore's still winning for me. So in other words, opening casinos would open more vacancies in the uk's mental health sector. Or if their are budget cuts in the health sector, more work for the mental health workers. A judge had decided Mrs Miller was entitled to a substantial settlement because she married with "reasonable expectation" of a future wealthy lifestyle. Now that is BS. “To the Muslim world,” said Barack Obama in his Inaugural Address, “we seek a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect. And we apologise profusely for invading Iraq and causing the death of 600,000 innocent Iraqis, and causing 1 million Iraqis to be homeless.” Now that's more like it. ------------------------------------------------ besides, its not about muslims , its about the american forgien policy....The policy evilize a group of people, their beliefs and then destroy them...The native americans, african slaves, england when it was the empire over north america, and on and on an on, ...If today muslims accept this apology look like thingie, the americans will find a new enemy and do the same thing to them.. I think muslims have an opportunity to end this american value, tradition and forgein policy.. i might be a little naive,but why can America have nuclear weapons pointing at Iran,and then tell Iran they cant have them? That's a stupid analogy. The Arab middle east is millions of square miles, Israel is a tiny part of it. A better analogy might be to say that suppose Asians fleeing persecution in, say, Africa had come to the UK, which they regarded as a homeland, to form a peaceful and prosperous minority, but the English had decided to murder and expel them, so the UN had to step in and partition Leicester for them to live in. At which time, armies from Germany and France invaded to try and destroy Leicester. They tell the remaining English inhabitants of Leicester to leave because it is going to be destroyed, but the Asians manage to fight them off. It would have been much better for everyone if the Ugandan Asians had been allowed to settle peacefully... oh wait, they did. And now they generate 2.5 times as much GDP as the average person. curious... read the article in the New Yorker (a magazine, btw, not a newspaper)... If I had handed in a paper with so many he saids/she saids and 'sources close to the subject' without any further evidence, my professors would have thrown my paper back in my face... what happened to sy between college and now is anybodys guess... He has arrived to his own conclusion (with few stops for actual facts along the way) based on his own prejudice, and then builds his story around that... Reaction: That these are Muslims who would have no problem with cultural integration in the UK. I wonder how many lashes they get. "I think the Europeans do not understand the levels of incompetence in our Government." The spectacular display of the Bush administration has opened our eyes! Not since the days of Nixon, have the names of so many of the Governments staff been common knowledge to those who follow the news. There are about 5 million Jews living in Australia coastal area. The most expensive part of Australia. Lucky people,indeed. James why do you see every critique of your critique as a personal attack? Again, what branch of law do you practice? I asked before and you never answered. That is how debate works, not you put up your side and we just accept it with out asking for clarification or offering counter opinion. You claim a neo-con economy benefits the rich but offer nothing but weak cliche generalizations and then when this is pointed out you say "this is the response I get". For starters, in case you werent aware, a persons income tax is based upon their annual earnings in salary and holdings such as stocks, money market accounts, properties etc. Even a MASSIVE tax break (for which there is a cap no matter who is in the White House as noted earlier) is not going to be a dent in the loses a very wealthy person would face in a weak economy. Many wealthy people are doctors, business owners, heads of large business whose salary and bonuses are dictated by the companies profits. There are more people in the US that fall into the categories of middle-income, lower-middle income. These are the people that spend the most. So tell me how a rich doctor is going to benefit from their being fewer people with quality health insurance or the ability to pay their medical fees? Tell me how a rich business owner is going to benefit from the regular joe having less money to spend at his place of business? Tell me how a wealthy guy who runs a factory or retail store is going to benefit from lower production, less staff and lower profitibility? Quit putting out accusations and then claim "personal attack" when people try and point to flaws in the flaws you point out. ...what a surprise ! The Sri Lankans say that after the Tsunami, a disaster far far worse than the force 3 hurricane which blew away parts of the American South, they had set up feeding centres within 2 days, there was no looting, no raping, no guns on the streets, no people performing in front of any TV camera they could find....in other words they behaved in a civilised manner. They contrast that with the way the Americans have behaved and ask how they can profess to be a civilised society. A question I have asked many times, but never had a satisfactory answer. Surely the richest country on the planet can do better than this? news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/... I find the psychology of the pro-gun nut interesting. So in your face and aggressive, alternating with a wheedling victimhood and a sneering snideness. In short precisely the sort of mental instability you would want to keep as far away from guns as possible. Of course not every American gun owner is as bad as that, but there does seem to be a correlation with how much they care about having killing tools in the closet and how barking they are. Of course it is. Zimbabwe just proves how sickeningly opportunist and false all the rhetoric from the Iraq hawks about 'humanitarian intervention' was. The neocons in America and Labour hawks here see nothing to gain by invading Zimbabwe, whereas there was much to gain by invading Iraq. Saddam's human rights record was a smokescreen to hide the real motives of the Iraq invasion. dipanna East Timor is a part of Indonesia that was colonized by the Portuguese and made it speak their language and have their Cristian religion. But as Muslims are always the losers,thanks to American and its baby israel,the Indonesian people lost that part of their land. colonel... then don't sell us anymore, colonel... that will solve that little problem... keep it in your countries... think the Islamic money-loving sheiks will allow this? Semantics.."then they're just guilty of mass murder or terrorism, not genocide" Ok...fine but I suspect that for Columbia to get the International Courts attention it is using the word 'genocide'. I do not see this 'lone voice' as daring to do anything. It's very difficult to quantify the 'savagery' in any meaningful sense. It's true that in any community there are people who behave collectively and compassionately whilst there are those that do not. This is no great revelation in itself. A society that fosters 'individualism', that favoured by the journalist, is less likely to produce acts of solidarity. A society neglected in run down housing schemes whilst being bombarded with images of wealth is likely to produce a degree of anti-social behaviour. A society that , when a major storm hits , is met with loaded guns to prevent 'looting', one that is criminalised for being poor, is likely to show inappropriate rage and anger. The extent of this, we really don't know. These are basic points. But they are far from the mind of this journalist. The point of the article is to make right wing points on the back of suffering.
That if the fat guy has asked for the permission from the mufti of mosque. Thats my defination of tolarance. No just dangerous. What happens if a lump flies off and slams into the moon destabilising it's orbit, causing tidal waves. Or worse still canons off the moon and hits the earth. My God the americans are going to kill us all. George W was right, no need to worry about global warming we're all going to die soon. Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:31 GMT, in reply to theforeverman4 in message 9 I do believe you've made a mistake. In your message 7 you said: But..... .....but Do you know where the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, sits? In Tel Aviv? WRONG The Knesset is in Jerusalem. Jerusalem and NOT Tel Aviv is the capitol of Israel. "Is that a valid reason to abandon the Iraqis to the tender mercies of al Qaeda? If the allied troops pulled out, I fear Iraq would fall to islamofascism in a very short time." The foreign Salafists are there entirely for the opportunity to have a pop at the Americans. There's no doubt that if the new Shia rulers and Baathists don't make some agreements, there will be continued civil conflict. However, although the American troops are keeping a lid on this violence, they can neither solve it nor stop it. Very astute of you to recognise the potential for history repeating itself. "They are a civilised people the Iraqis, but now that GW Cretin has killed many tens of thousands of them for no reason, except his own stupidity, will the fly some planes into his medicine cabinet, where he keeps his anti stupidity tablets to finally make him so stupid that he can't find the door of his cell ??" Good Lord, seeme the younger of the three personalities has emerged there Ta Tonka ...no? Yes, to the "funny farm ....ho ho he he....!" I knew I did something wrong! It is astonishing, isn't it? Albert has, just on this thread within the past 20 minutes, been incredibly insulting to two people. My comment has been removed, and his stand. It's a weird, weird world. I'm aware that you're choosy - and you can afford to be my sweet. My best guess is that the Martians will be taking-over teh UK before 'Jews' could be bothered. What if Jews had bought Trafalgar square and erected a 100 foot Golden Calf? Or maybe bought Glasgow and turned it into a theme park? Shalom Well I think that it is a fact that the book depository was behind and to teh right of the motorcade and that JFKs head moved "up and to the left" there is not hollywoodisation of this simple fact, the simple logical explanation being that he was shot from front and to (his) right... i.e th grass knoll, where by coincidence 54 people witnessed hearing a close gunshot and seeing gun smoke, one of those being a police man... This is all documented evidence... So applying Occamøs razor here could only yield one possibility. Also if your saying it is not logical that they could have put a couple of guy sinto the stratosphere for a couple of days, played a video on TV and then brought them back I donøt see how you can follow that it IS logical that they put a man on the moon in 1969 when computers were the size of a sportsfield the transistor radio was only just born and yet they havenøt done it since! Hey I'll believe logic when I see some.... COMPREHENSION??? I actually said that what they do in their own time, out of school is THEIR BUSINESS. If they want to indulge in anti-semitism then that is THEIR business. If its against the law then its the LAW'S BUSINESS! You definitely missed that! [quote]So, one has to ask, why did they go ahead and decide to put her forward for this award? It has been suggested that she received the award as some kind of morale boosting exercise. Well, I think it's rather insulting to previous holders of this bravery award to suggest that the bar has been lowered to accommodate this notion.[/quote] Somebody already mentioned PR! Beharry and his VC was another recipient whom people, in the services, questioned the reason why. I guess all I'm saying is that in her case, many more servicemen have shown much more courage with much less recognition. Insulting to previous holders? Yes perhaps, but the MOD today is much more aware of the media image that it projects, besides the MOD love to get a female on the front cover! :D "This is a general post script to hothousemat ,Puydedome , Astute Ann & all selective humanists on this board . Selective humanists are those people who will preach fire & brimstone against any wrongdoing" "The selective humanists , demand that the Jews should have different rules. I rest my case." Well, well, well. For someone who doesn't like racism and uneven-handed behaviour, Ben sure knows how to pigeonhole! I've explained myself previously in this thread. From what I wrote there, it is obvious that Ben's latest post doesn't apply to me and, therefore, I can only assume that Ben has either skimped in respect of reading it, or has a cognitive malfunction. In either case, his posts are so one-sided that they deserve nothing but contempt. Calling people "racist" when they're not is unacceptable behaviour in my book. So I'll treat his posts with the contempt that they deserve. You may know Albert from such classics as "America to blame for the Ice age", an American started the great fire of London", a Californian killed Caesar" or the much loved "McDonald’s started the black death" I think you have missed out a couple of noughts in the number of Israel's nukes. So if Iran sent one to Israel, she could retaliate big time. Firework night ! its in the media and in conflict with everyone including itself. Sorry Tony - Its true! <<the 14 year old al Dura was dead>> and indeed he was, but that video at the time was a best-seller in Arab homes showing the boy 'alive and well' meaning that no Palestinian martyr dies but they go on living in Paradise which we all know Palestinians truly believe. Sadly enough it is not propaganda. Just what does building French helicopters in Mexico have to do with healing the drug violence?? What is wrong with the British posters today? ubergunner There should and no doubt will be an OC investigation. Not sure what the `cheat score' by country over the years is, but I guess the UK has its `fair; share of/em. Cheat stats anybody? J I would agree with this but only up to a point and the article isn't clear about this: Is it REALLY, as you say, "muslim-only time"? If so, I agree. If, as the article MAY be implying, these times are accessible to women of any faith that wish to swim in these particular conditions, then I disagree with you that it's "segregation by ethnicity". Does anyone actually know? By the way, this just reminds me of a sad personal story: Years ago my mother was on an Ulpan program rooming with a young Palestinian woman and they became close friends. At that time my mother was a big swimmer and availed herself of the swimming pool on a daily basis for exercise and heat relief. After a number of months, her friend asked if she could go with my Mom early one morning and have my Mom teach her how to swim. They did this once and it resulted in verbal hostility from some Arab men who happened to witness it. She wore a VERY conservative (by Western standards, of course) one piece swimsuit and was careful to remain fully covered up until the last possible moment when entering and exiting the pool. A day later, the woman came to my Mom in tears because the word had gotten back to her family in the West Bank and they had phoned her threatening to remove her from the program if she did that again. She went again -- this time even earlier to avoid being seen and even more careful with regard to modesty. Her family made good on their threat and she was gone in a matter of days and my Mom was never able to contact her and to this day doesn't know whether she received any of her letters or not or what became of her. I don't care what people wanna do with regard to modesty and dress, in theory: But I do object to legal adults being denied the right to make their own decision on what they want to wear in places where it's acceptable for others to dress the same -- ie, if it's at a pool where swimsuits are accepted attire at that time. Nice one,Mondial Axegrinder, you seem to be trying to make a point here somewhere but i fail to see what it is. I think it should be clear that we were discussing Europe and the left, not Australia and the Right, or wherever. I'm assuming that because you can't seem to get the point, or understand what's in front of you, that you could only be a Eurolefty. Am i right? "Hitler, by the way, did this same thing in his time. Because of "terrorists" he needed some new special powers". So you feel that the United States is on the road to a dictatorship and National Socialism, do you Gagarin? I don't see those fears being expressed in the US at all, apart from those with easily excited imaginations. What do you think should happen to potential terrorists? And what makes you believe there is no definition for terrorism? Actually, it's rather alarming that people actually believe this sort of guff. Oh you ARE a swinger both ways. First its "Jews have no rights to be in Israel" - now its "Jews need to be in Israel to fulfill the Messiah Prophecy (that Muslims don't accept" Talk about being desperate for a cause. Jerusalem belongs to the Jewish people. It's the center of our universe. But nobody says that Jerusalem has no place for anyone else. "" The point is that it wasn't just Jewish immigration that occured but massive arab immigration aswell "" And where exactly did I deny the fact that there was Arab immigration? I know there was BOTH Arab and Jewish immigration, but the Jewish immigration far outnumbered the number of Arabs who were coming into the region, because unlike the Jews there was a good number of Arab's who fled the region as well. "" This myth about 'palestinians' having lived in the land for 1000s of years is simply that, a myth "" Obviously you're completely ignoring everything I have said thus far. The point here is there have ALWAYS been Muslim's in that region for the past 1000 years that have outnumbered the Jews. Therefore, the current Palestinian's have had far more ancestors living over the past millenia then the number of Israeli ancestors, since most of them are all immigrants and therefore have no traceable family history in the region before the 20th century. "" Is there a library near you? Go and read 'From Time Immemorial' by Joan Peters "" LOL, this alone explains why you have such a one sided and narrow minded view on this. The fact that you rely on a book which is engineered towards promoting a tired old excuse which has been debated to death does you no favours whatsoever. "There is little room for "becoming " homosexual after birth. People are indeed born that way, but it is not known what the reason is why they are what they are. OK?" Hi Conny, Zabak, others Lets not pretend that Rahman's paper settles the issue. I think the current understanding is that sexual orientation does not fall neatly into discrete categories, but rather places a person on a continuum ranging from enitrely attracted to the same sex or entirely attracted to the opposite sex. Whatever genetic influence there is on sexual orientation then, it is not 'either or'. Beyond that cultural factors do seem to push peoples orientation this way or that. Its worth noting that absolute sexual categories did not/do not exist in some cultures. (Ancient Greece) It is a little smililar to whether people are left/right handed oddly enough. It is estimated that hereditary factors account for just 32 percent of variability in handedness, but that doesnt account for 90% of people being right handed. A cultural bias towards right handedness accounts for that more effectively. People can and do change their sexual orientation in the course of their lives. 'Gay' people go 'straight', 'straight' people go 'gay'. the importance of cultural factors in determining sexual orientation should be acknowleged. Self actualisation is an important factor in personal happiness (and therefore, social cohesion). People must not be brought up to think that they are (or must be) exactly one way or another. Here is a decent paper on it: cat.inist.fr/?aModel... Note that my concern is that people should be able to freely discover their position on a continuum rather than to "cure" a natural/social orientation. The field of study is frought with political issues obviously, that should not clould investigation. As scientists we want to just know what is going on, not determine what should go on. A 6.3 magnitude earthquake hit Sumatra, killing at least 70 people. No risk of a tsunami since the epic center was on land rather than beneath the ocean. Living in an earthquake-prone area, I can sympathize with those who experienced the quake. My thoughts are with the families of the victims killed in the quake. If in fact there was no snow storm today, no closure of the schools. Then, according to the time stamp, EBT started this thread and contributed to it, during school hours. Thus, he either used his break times to post, or used the PPA (planning, preperation and assesement) Time alloted to him by the school administators to prepare lessons and assess the needs of his students, to make these message board postings. EBT has said in the past that he uses his PPA time to make postings on these boards. Personally, if I were a teacher, I would use my PPA time to actually plan and prepare my lessons and to assess the progress of my students. Not post on message boards. But that is just me. Either way, it does not affect my children. But I leave it to the fine people of the UK to decide if they think that EBTs message board postings are the best use of a teachers time during school hours. Next posting would be the universe just happened from nuttin. I was only kidding, dubya. Watchout for those angry swimming polar bears. "In the name of Allah, the merciful, the compassionate. To whom it may concern: I am writing this letter to inform you of my reasons for premeditating and attempting to murder citizens and residents of the United States of America on Friday, March 3, 2006 in the city of Chapel Hill, North Carolina by running them over with my automobile and stabbing them with a knife if the opportunities are presented to me by Allah." Before he drove a rented SUV onto the campus of the University of North Carolina and tried to run down and kill as many people as he could on March 3, Mohammed Reza Taheri-Azar left a letter of explanation in his apartment www.aina.org/news/20... schools, cars, busses, churches, stores and many other buildings. They have also been responsible for civilian deaths with their use of inceindary devices and violence they are ruining life for ordinary people and they are trying to tear apart the French nation. These riots are going on all around the country, there have been some riots in Belgiium, Germany and in Denmark .. first step to a european caliphite It seems to me the world is doing exactly the opposite of moving away form the dark ages. We are in the middle of a religious war right mow. Have a good Christmas, yourself Yossarian. Thanks for the info, Dagnarius. I admit I don't have full chapter and verse on North Korea's military strength. How does North Korea earn its keep? I know the general population is saved from starvation only through foreign aid. Also that all the resources they have goes into the military. Couldn't the country be blockaded? Personally, or are you really refering to their nations? I'm talking about personal peace - peace of mind, or whatever you want to call it.
O ye of no knowledge.
Anyway. This is a day of celebration; Christ is risen, and we have conquered death. Peace comes to those who know the Lord. Maybe this will help explain why Americans are being so 'unfair' to him: "Moussaoui also testified he would continue to try to kill Americans, even if locked up in a maximum-security prison. "Anytime, anywhere," he said." www.timesdispatch.co... do you need more? there are hundreds of articles YEEESSSSSSSS!!!!! <G-d chose certain people because of their blood not their religon...its the duty of the chosen ones to keep their blood pure. Hybrids cannot acheive the status of chosen ones...they are hybrids...There is nothing racist about it...Its just a will of G-d...some He makes chosen, others hybrids...> How come you talk about "the will of God (Allah)" but deny Israel when it was given to the Children of Israel by Allah in the Koran? One can only conclude you aren't a Muslim because you defy Allah's will. "why would anyone complain? they only complain if they can somehow put the blame on Israel." Of course, that was my point. I was trying to be subtly sarcastic! witnesses say it was a suicide bomber - islamist fanatics love to blame the west so just give them what they love to feed on Is it me, or is the title of this thread really distasteful? They're dead Albert. Perhaps at this point you could reign in your noxious bigotry? Again I am amazed at how words have been twisted. In Israel arabs are around 20% of the population. Netanyahu himself suggested that if it rises above this there is a "demographic threat" www.haaretz.com/hase... In the west bank it is overwhelmingly arab so on that notion it is hard to see the current system working if arabs are given full rights like Israeli citizens are in Israel in a future 1 Israeli state incorporation the west bank and Gaza. He has also playing down the 2 state solution so I'm wondering what his plan would be to give arab future rights in the west bank under Israeli control indeed if that what they intend and not keep up this apartheid system there. If Americans will not speak out for those innocents who are massacred in colleges and malls on a regular basis in their won country - then it is the right of decent people around the world to criticise.>>>> By what criteria do you assert that Americans don't speak out for the victims of that shooting? What an odd comment to make. i know you are keen to deflect from the current issue and the post i have made. the truth? i dont think you are able to recognise the truth. if you have a need to discuss darfur and the sudan, withref to the uk/usa involvement in that country, in creating a civil war (oil related) then feel free to start a new thread. meta etc So why did this incident create one of the biggest news stories this week and is the leading thread by number of posts? Was/is the `symbolism' so deep? Serious stuff apart the pub jokes are still coming re eg : ` Does Bush now have `sole'? ` Is the shoe on the other foot' ` Iraq/Arabs world wide put the boot in' ` Dead duck Bush ducks' ` Joke Bush jokes over the size of shoe thrown - but what is the global symbolic size' OK that's trite stuff but the effects of Bush's war on Iraq will continue long after he is gone and only time will tell whether is was worth bombing a country, killing so many innocent people and destroying a country's infrastucture, to despose SH and rid his country of WMD's and their threat to the USA. Lest you forget. J Two intresting things have happened quitely in science of late..first, Sceintist have taken a seed, dated over 1000 years, and created a plant from its dna..cool eh?..Also, they have drained the blood from 'dogs', frozen them..replaced that blood, and restarted them..brought them back to life.. And I should trust them? No one knows everything. ------------------------------------------------ I know everything...But do I want to enlighten your mind? Nope...I was not encourged to passively receive information and I dont like others to lazily accept information without any proof on the bases of false evidence...Otherwise I would be a westerner and believed in the stories told by your leaders, retold by your media and had actually believed that iraq had wmd or the stuff you are told everyday. That our perception is groomed by the media, wether we think it is or not. For me the mainstream media is guilty of many far reaching crimes. "Perception crimes", which in my book are no less important than war crimes themselves. I fervently hope that Arnie doesn't succeed. I see no reason why gays should not have the same rights as straight people. However, I don't really think that Muslims are in a position to lecture, wendymann. Nor Britons. The soon-to-be "civil partnerships" are not equal to the marriage that at least some US gays can enjoy. >>The UN was weakened by the US undermining it and invading Iraq whilst the UN protested, hang on - we're on top of this. Like the traffic warden performing a citizen's arrest on a drunk-driver in the middle of questioning by specialist traffic police. << thats bull. The UN was weak before, the UN will continue to be weak, the UN would still be weak if the US didn't undermine it. The US undermining it changed nothing with the UN. The corruption and do nothing UN caused its own demise. Of course I'm not surprised, a democratic institution membered by non-democratic states doesn't make sense. >>Any time the US elects to whole-heartedly support the UN (instead of sending haters to sit on it's Assembly), I am confident the UN's credence will be restored.<< translation, the US does the work again, the UN continues to do nothing. do not call me a jihadist, just because my opinion differes from yours. the context is important because it brings a perspective to the reality and not some scaremongering by the knucklescrapers who believe all of the hype. Anyone get the feeling that Dez wants a 'fight'? i think as political statements they are as valid as the danish cartoons. if the danish cartoons are a matter of freespeech then so are these. there is of course an important point to be made, that is the holocaust should be open to debate, it should be open to scrutiny since truth and an accurate account can be more valuable than an account that is denied access and may lead to prison. if the koran should be open to critical analysis as most zionists insist, then why not the holocaust? Nothing happened to it except that the Lebanese have decided not to exercise that right. This is, as I said before, because they would happily see the end of Hezbollah and can then hopefully rekindle the fire of economic growth and success and business acumen taht is inherrent in the character of every Lebanese person I have ever met. "Each groups has its fanatics, don't tar all Muslims with the same brush!" I don't tar all Moslems with the same brush. What Moslems are failing to understand though, is that what is haram for them, does not extend to non-believers. Non of us are obliged to follow each others religion (not in the UK anyway), but we are all bound by the law. I'm not obliged to follow the rule of not making images of the phrophet, any more than I am the rule of going to confession, or not answering the phone on a Saturday. You just tarred all Muslims with the same brush by not using the words "some" Muslims. And you didn't answer the question about the football match!!! Perhaps you would like retry?? I give up. They say you cant make sense out of nonsense. You prove that. Red 'Lily-white' Italians trashed Ghana and France. message 221 re-written I think you just make it up as you go along. Any economic system gives rise to a state that will uphold its interests. Are you saying that the US armed forces are not defending US capitalist interests? Of course I disagree. This is a Nazi trying to recruit people. Today, the Nazis will tailor language to gain populist support. It's no use just giving a quote without allowing for context. BTW Hitler was vehemently anti-Marxist by 1921 and his activity reflected that undeniably. I think you're being hypocritical, John. You attempt to dismiss any and all disagreement with your representation by pre-empting a few potential counterpoints and denoting them "go[ing] round in escalating circles", thereby showing no willingness whatsoever to hear differing viewpoints as you prematurely belittle them with your "again if you wish". But that's PRECISELY what you're doing... going round in circles! Or at least that's how it appears to me in the absense of any apparent desire to go anywhere else... Israel have said that they were within their rights under the ceasefire to engage in this action (and, according to the first link [IHT] that comes up from your google link, made this clear before the action): Okay, this is something you think was a mistake and perhaps you and certainly others might disagree and believe it's more than just a bad PR decision but an actual violation... But the main point you're missing is that the ceasefire violation by Hezbollah that Israel is claiming it was responding to has NOT been used by Israel as an excuse to abandon the ceasefire further than this action (or, presumably and reportedly, any others like it), from your beeb link: ~ ~ "Israel...insisted the truce held." ~ ~ So where are you going? Let's even say we agree that it was a PR mistake... What happens next? IS it an excuse for Hezbollah to announce a complete disconnection from the ceasefire? IS it an excuse for the Lebanese government to renege? Surely that gets it all back to where you suggest you don't want it -- going round in circles -- right? Or is there something you haven't yet offered that would explain this apparent contradiction? The BBC article you link to inadvertently touches on this further in parallel to this point and I think it's key to the conflict and, unfortunately, in much of the discussion going on it's being avoided: ~ ~ "The BBC's Nick Childs in Beirut correspondent says the UN's main concern is that the incident both highlights the urgent need for UN reinforcements and will put off potential troop contributors, because it projects an image of insecurity." ~ ~ An "image of insecurity"? It didn't have that before? So "the UN's main concern" is that any troops it might send will be aware of what's going on? Is that a sneaked snippet of the planned 'rules of engagement'... know as little as possible about the conflict and make sure any and all troops are given a false sense of security just to ensure that they will, once again, be nothing more than sitting ducks in the line of fire? And these parallels emanate from the same underlying point illustrated above and again as we see from the Lebanese Defense Minister (also from the beeb article): ~ ~ "He said any rocket fired from Lebanese territory would be considered collaboration with Israel to provide a pretext for it to strike. ... ...[he] said that if the UN failed to give "clear answers" in response to the raid he "might be forced to ask the cabinet early next week to halt the army deployment in the south"." ~ ~ So there we are: That's the only result I can see of a discussion criticizing Israel for this 'PR disaster'... Excuse for Hezbollah, excuse for Siniora and excuse for the UN. Of course it warrants addressing but it's your purpose that will define how it's addressed and your address which will expose your purpose and, at the moment, it appears to be a desire to go round in circles and add your weight to the 'PR disaster'.
forgot to add the Jewish evil laugh.... MWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA Eh? That's lie. Typical of the right wing. Lie. I never, ever, said that - produce the posting! Or apologise. This case cannot be decontextualised from the Institutional implementaion of the Death Penalty. mrjingles - Right you are //Not everyone who attacks Israel is Anti-semitic.A good number are simply ignorant//.... yes, like those poor Arabs who have received the wrong kind of education... all upside down inside out, as for instance the 'land of Israel' is on Islamic soil ......!The imams, mullahs, teachers are the ones to blame... not the poor innocent arab children who under their guidance finally resort to suicide......! But probably more corruption than in China . //A very valid comment on a thread opened by one of our resident PRO-Israel spinmeisters// It kind of reminds me of the type of football fan who never seems to see players on his team foul or cheat but never fails to spot an opposition player doing the same thing. This could be easily resolved if the pro-Israeli and Pro-Palestinian posters agreed to keep their own pet trolls under control, but of course this won't ever happen, party line and all that. <<but the situation is quite different here.>> That's not my experience, nor the experience of my friends who live in the US. Stop pretending that North America is some sort of utopia where all "people" are decent, well educated, kindly sorts. Its a crass and childish deceit. <<only its process and administration.>> More sophistry. The process/administration is inextricably tied to the penalty. The penalty is imposed on the basis of an administrative (albeit judicial) basis. There is no such thing as absolute truth before the law, Granht, only what you can prove. And sometimes that leads to a miscarriage of justice. If you can't guarantee the protection of the innocent man, then the penalty is unconscionable. <<because some are just to happy in prison,>> Lol. Well, that's an issue of "process and administration" isn't it Grant? <<All punishment is a deterrent>> But there are deterrents that seem to have equal effect but don't indulge barabism. <<person responsible will not murder again.>> So again, put them away for life. That protects the public. <<What's hypocritical about that?>> What's hypocritical in a "Chrsitian" nation maintaining a death penalty? I presume you understand the basic tenets of the religion, Grant? Pax The war crimes are the easy part - the civilians who died directly due to the Iraq war. The afghan war cant be included because it was an international effort. Who? That would require an analysis of who exactly made the decision and the overall chain of command. But if you want me to blurt out the standard bush/cheney answer - well...sorry to disappoint. Why only 'Australian Beef' that is being so criticised..... ? What about the 'Arab/Muslim Beef' that we see on their BELLY DANCERS....? The majority of palestinians support terrorism so are equally guilty. This barrier is a responce to the barbaric society that the palestinians have created. Might Mrs pipe be zebrasviewpoint and junior pipe be EBT along with their cousin, Mr Wragg? Surely such a dysfunctional and dim family would go a long way in explaining the deluge of posts with one agenda we're seeing on these boards. It is down to the fact that having them and not using them is a point of view some countries leaders may find hard to do. In fact I think that you will find that most nukes were developed not as an attack weapon, but more as a deterent. After the world saw the effects of WW2 bombs in japan, people realised how evastating the effects then and now can be. Listening to this leader of Iran, who talks about wiping isreal off the mapp of the M/E. Or his speeches that make out he is the communing with his god and feels he is a vessel when speaking to his people. and apparently they like living in Israel (since they have done for 30 years) www.telegraph.co.uk/... (We shouldn't be denied the opportunity to debate this because the original post was removed for cut & paste). And amazing thing is this:- So, members of Haniyeh's family have been serving in the IDF and defending their fellow Israeli citizens from Hamas. Someone please explain "Racist Apartheid Israel" in the context of Muslim Arab's, related to Palestinians are also Israeli citizens. Kinda makes that statementr hilarious! I might nip down the east lancs for a wander. I hope they aren't turning L'pool into another identikit city, where pension funds buy up land and build monotonous structures. I quite liked the old tatty L'pool. Post industrial Manchester is on the cusp of being characterful to looking like anywhere else. gizelle, Muslims aren´t anti-Semitic,as they are 50% Semitic due to Abraham and Hagar. But we Muslims are against the Zionists who are occupying the Palestinian W.Bank and E.Jerusalem. The moon is OURS. We permit you to visit it and even live on it as good half brothers! Well, we shall soon see, because the end of the second quarter is fast approaching, and how, may I ask, do you think the UK is going to continue financing its horrendous deficits on current account? By printing money? by hoping and praying? Or more likely, by hiking interest rates to attract further short-term foreign capital, at the expense yet again of what's left of domestic industry....??? The difference between the Turkish situation and the Nazi Holocaust is that the ideology and administration in Germany was removed by WW2 and prosecuted providing eventually for a measure of closure for Germany and a separation of the modern federal republic from that era. However in Turkey, the Young Turk revolution was central to the nationalist rather than religious nature of the Armenian Genocide and even after the governments takeover by Ataturk massacres continued. The Genocide is intertwined with the birth of the modern Turkish State and not something that can be "blamed" on the old Ottoman authorities. Therefore recognition of the Genocide imperils modern Turkey in a way which neither Germany or even Japan have had to deal with. Add to this the treatment of the Kurds by the Turkish goverment all makes this a modern issue and not a historical one. A few years ago, april 2003 a month after bagdad was invaded, I told people at different news forum of this weird habit of americans stripping down the iraqi civilians and making them do things which you all saw when year later the scandal of abu gharib was made people, noone believed me. That was the day I decided some people do not deserved to be told the truth. So threive in the lies of tony and goerge. hi darthvedder, ever heard of a little thing known as 'operation sealion' this was the invasion plan for Britain "Russians also had no interest in westward expansion." and you know stalin better than anyone i presume African Muslims found with Palestinian supporting articles/documents and with 'Islamist material'. Living in Paris. Alleged to have carried-out the anti-Semitic crime. Something fits a pattern here. And as we know, EVERYONE in Iraq is a civillian! If they win the World Cup at the weekend they'll be pretty happy.It's always something to celebrate when you overthrow the nobs. Dag The arab plan is no good for Israel It leave no room for negotiation like I said its a package deal .. no room for Israel to negotiate on the borders of a future palestians state, keeping Jerusalem whole isnt an option, keeping any settlements isnt an option, keeping all or even part of the Golan isnt an option and there must be a palestian right of return. Israel must NEGOTIATE with the palestians using the roadmap that means concesions from both sides not just Israel and with Syria that can be decided through future talks based again on NEGOTIATION not simply handing over 100% of the Golan like the arab plan would have Israel do. "When someone still has a $500,000 mortgage on a now $250,000 house many will just walk away, just as what happened in the UK in the eighties. They no longer have debtor's prisons and the lenders must suffer the loss." If as you say that is the case in America and/or Canada it is not so simple in England. If a property doesn't realise the sum secured against it then the borrower is still liable to pay the difference and the absence of debtor's prisons does not negate that nor is it any guarantee that those who don't fulfill their obligations won't see the inside of a prison. Current leniency toward personal bankruptcy may see some changes but that was not the case in the eighties and to my knowledge it was a busy time for bailiffs in many areas. "There is a correction going on in the housing market and it will be international. It began over a year ago and people should have been paying attention." Again, I can't speak for the US or Canada but such a correction has been widely predicted here for a few years and whilst it may be international it is also likely to be regional in effect. "But if you are happy in your home and don't have a large mortgage, or aren't holding one, then it really won't matter." There's nothing in current predictions that are any concern to me. Neil Lennon might find himself reduced to being one of his little helpers. They gave up their symbol. Now they run around with balls on their head. So does this toilet cost $1 and is not built to last that is what Made in China means isnt it .. CHEAP BUT BAD QUALITY just hope it doesnt break down just after somebody has used it so better to be safe than sorry and use an American $1 million toilet that was built to last If though China does start getting involved in space in a big way then for the Americans it can go 2 ways. 1) It will lead to greater cooperation and possibly lead to better relations with the China. 2) It will mean the US is going to start doing things for political reasons but which have very little scientific value .... the appolo program was simply about beating the Russians to the moon all they did was plant flags, play golf and do a little off road driving and the only 1 scienitst was ever sent who understood geology and other such things and he was on the very last of the appolo missions. What we do not want is America carrying out pointless programs just so they can say look we were the first ones to do it if somethihng is going to be done at all it must be for a very good reason and have scientific value. Says who? He was an illegitimate because that child mother Mary (jew) had an affair and then claimed she had it off with an angel. If your missus came up with an excuse like that, would you believe her? "it is a regular tactic of yours to turn an expression of opinion into a question that gives a completely different version of that expression". That's because I believe these statements are not thought through and contains fuzzy logic. You seldom are able to respond to these questions but instead complain that they are asked. On the other hand you offer statements I never made and pigeonhole me in positions that aren't mine. While you may believe this to be honest, I don't. I'll withdraw the remark with the understanding that you'll quote me directly in the future rather than trying to make a counterargument against me from memory. Oh Yes, the plaintive cry of the desperate European, "It's all America's fault". And as you sink deeper into your morass of wide unemployment, corruption trials, rioting Muslims, further riots of hopelessly unrealistic students, and rapidly decreasing influence in the world, i'm sure you'll find a way to blame all of this on America too. Bon chance! Problem is, especially with China, is there isn't anyway to prvent it, if they don't want to stop. Kick them out of the WTO? won't do a thing. No one is going to prohibit trade with them, because unfortunately we need them just as much as they are hurting some of our industries with that practice. That was 39 years ago. Do you have any examples of protest/criticism of the goverment being "ruthlessly crushed" that are a little more current? The acts of Hizbollah out of Lebanon, are a direct provocation on Israel, a declaration of war. Israel's reactions are heavy handed, short-sighted and unbalanced. It had a clear right to react, but its chosen manner is brutish and reckless. Israel is one of the nations that exceeds in digging its own hole. These are the facts. To aiejrlsk - From you ..... 'Israel's medievil barbarism towards palestinians'...! Just who are the medievil groups here who resort to primitive and barbaric methods to kill Israelis but those 'Palestinian sucide-bombers' and those little children who become 'human bombs' just to murder Jews who they believe took their land and houses..... Israel is today one of the most progressive and modern little states you could find and it is punishment for the Arabs - who call themselves 'Palestinians'.....! that they cannot keep up with the development and advance in science, technology and medicine which Israel prides itself on achieving. They were posturing idiots in a war zone, to a great extent the authors of their own misfortune. "btw, terrorists do not get civil rights" What about innocent people being kept in inhuman conditions for years? The US are responsible for this, yet still claim to be 'spreading freedom'. It is - but I have seen it used on this board many times by islamists when some of our black participants dont agree with them. Its appalling. If you dont support terrorism, or (majoritively) dare to critique islam, then you are an uncle tom - same goes for the use of 'zionist' for anyone else. I think that must be a common theme running through some of these mosques. Doesn't executed mean put to death? wendymann: "go to project for new american century and all will be revealed" What some Americans planned to extend their empire, though laughable, are not what I'm after. I just want to know what goes on in the head in of someone that feels obliged to go out and kill innocent civilians. This was well planned so certainly they think it will further their objectives - how? Insightful One, you are simply being dishonest. They were told that they were to be executed immediately and blind folded and made to stand against a wall in front of firing squad and terrorised in other ways. That is what we are told by the sailors and why do you disbelieve them? This is not the UK government talking but private individuals. I note you seem to have only a tenuous grasp on truth but perhaps others including these citizens have slightly higher standards than you Hi colonelartist, Colonelartist quote: “Trust me I knew my neighbors well, and they knew me well, but invasion makes people change for the worst...if allowed to invade I can simply destroy both your or your neighbors work place, and homes...” Colonelartist quote: “It just takes three days to lay the foundations of anarchy......If you haven’t learnt from the first three days after invasion of Iraq, then you haven’t learnt anything...” Instead of talking about theoretical situations such as the USA being occupied in the 21st century why not talk about real life examples? What we have learned in dozens and dozens of invasions and occupations the normal thing is to resist the invaders rather than spend the time killing your neighbors and ordinary civilians blowing up other ordinary civilians is not normal behavior. For example many countries in Asia were occupied by the Japanese Imperial Army from China to Korea to the Philippines to Thailand etc and the civilians under occupation never started blowing each other up in markets or temples etc. When the US army occupied Japan and other asian countries the Japanese & other civilians never started to kill each other. Nazi Germany occupied most of Europe and the Europeans never started to kill each other. Then the Russians occupied Eastern Europe and the allies Western Europe after the war and the civilians didn’t start to kill each other after three days, three years etc. India was occupied by the British for years and years and the Indians didn’t suddenly turn on their neighbors and start killing them. Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Macedonia etc were occupied by the Ottomans and the civilians didn’t turn on each other. The Muslims occupied Spain for seven centuries and the Spanish didn’t start killing each other after a 3 days or 3 weeks or 3 months or 3 years etc. Tibet has been occulted by the Chinese since the 1950s and the Tibetan civilians didn’t start to kill each other. However today we have attack after attack from ordinary Muslims on other ordinary Muslims in the Market, Schools, Hospitals, and Mosques day after day in Iraq so explain how this muslim on muslim violence is a Western conspiracy? So tell us all colonelartist just how this American/Jewish conspiracy works that forces or tricks the good Muslims of Iraq into killing each other? Just give up the background outline on how this conspiracy works. So far you have just told us there is a Western conspiracy that is causing this so no outline to us so we can see what you are referring to. BTW I would appreciate an answer from anyone what is this Western conspiracy fro Dag_PETERSEN who refers to it all the time, or Don’t Trust Anyone etc. Anyone who can explain this American/Jew/West conspiracy please step forward and do so because I am really curious to hear it outlined. Warmest Regards, Smoker The Iraqi people voted for democracy. The Coalition want to help them get democracy. The Islamic lunatics will do everything they can to stop The West succeeding because it will show up Iran (and Al Queda and all the criminals in the Middle east) and what they really stand for: Anarchists. Some clapped out conspiracy site quoting a mish mash of sources does not provide any evidence of anything. And as for your own remarks .. "some jews do not allow any other view than that very carefully manicured myth" Just how are people 'not allowing any other views' Historical research is available to all and historical resarch proves millions died. And not just Jews, there is no myth there. You are a good example of how hatred and bigotry lead to blindness. this is to up the pressure on iran they have it coming We aren't going to agree Helen. The anti-semitism in that case is incidental, Finegold's offence in KL's eyes (and mine too) is his choice of employer. And the fuss made over any anti-semitism is politically inspired. Just as the "anti-semitism" detected when pro-Israelis start losing an argument is politically inspired. When anti-semitism is used by a bit of low life like Finegold to gain the moral high ground the I refuse to accept it is a valid charge. No, just observant people. Just as you are giving your observation. And ZI would never confuse you with a policeman/woman in a million years. "simcha3 Why does everybody say that Israel is obligated to return to the pre 1967 lines when resolution 242 says Israel should return TERRITORIES not ALL TERRITORY and this was inentilaly worded this way because the UN never expected Israel to return to the pre war borders and also the conditions for Israel returning anything is in return for peace and the arabs recognising Israel." its a pity that you are so desperate to justify the annexing of the occupied lands. it has to do with wider international law, i suggest that you look at 242 in context with those obligations. if we are to so reliant on intent, then the intent was of course for israel and palestine to occupy the same amount of land. so why does israel not feel obligated to meet this requirement. in fact why does israel deny a whole people the right to self determination and statehood. it doesnt make sense for a people that regularly defines itself as being victims. Hi Stuart, As a refinement to your proposal, would it be acceptable for: (a) me to ask one or two of Ruth's questions, and; (b) Ruth to take up your answer/s? Alternatively [variation on sub-clause (b)] for me to take up your answer/s having consulted with Ruth beforehand? Let's really get to the bottom of this one! Yours, Gavin Unfortunately Eyes wide open is actually Eyes firmly shut! If I don't "know" that Russia has carried out these extra judicial killings, it's because no independent human rights organisation or journalist is allowed anywhere near the crime scenes!! And the killing you speak of in Iraq is perpetrated by the terrorists. You know; the terrorists that blow up innocent civilians with car bombs every other day! I note that you are very fussy with evidence in this case, but so-far unproven allegations against the CIA are taken as fact when it suits your argument. So far the ALLEGATIONS of torture against the CIA are pure conjecture. Rules of engagement you describe are correct - however how does one determine that a terrorist (who is fanatical and may well have no regard for their own life, let alone an American soldier's) is no longer a threat? Welcome to the cold, harsh reality of urban warfare. If any American soldier has taken it upon themselves to deliberately kill or harm innocent civilians, then those soldiers in question should be brought to justice, and no doubt will be if any solid evidence is available. Have not the Greeks a poor record on how they treat their mentally handicapped etc? Mr Silver - Princess Diana was killed in a car accident - she would be alive today is she was wearing a seat belt. There is so much evidence that Hitler killed himself in his bunker that I am amazed you even raise the question. Arafat was sick, ill and died - simple as that And Oswald killed Kennedy. Some might take all the conspiracy theories seriously until you finally realise how people can turn a straight forward thing like two planes flying into a building and turn it on its head into the most unbelievable bizarre theories imaginable. If they can do that with the WTC attacks then we should not be suprised that the Kennedy assasination attracts such comment. "Got any quotes available for this claim, rjsc rjsc," yup "It's as though we're living in a parallel universe." " .. this war on terror" Oh good grief, do people still use that outdated phrase? Did it ever mean anything? I know GWB and Fox like to shout it like it means something but then they are harldy known for their command of the English language. I wonder if I can help simplify the position. I am against terrorism. I am for liberty, freedom, democracy and the rule of law. Is that clear enough? //OK let me rephrase it.In Britain Arabs and Muslims are generally accepted as friends.If they are routinely spoken of as enemies in America then the Americans doing this are being racist.// "A novel idea." Not to use in the UK,but then we're not in a state of permanent paranoia like Americans seem to be. But 'BLIAR' rhymes with 'LIAR', more apropriate I'm sure you agree. "you really think that arabs were stupid enough to encourage hitler to kill jews in europe" some Arabs.....abolutely. To deny is just plain stupid. .."I saw what our artillery rounds did to people. I saw whole Iraqi towns engulfed in flames. There were Iraqi people dead by the roadside, and I couldn't tell if they were men or women". A growing number of American servicemen are now speaking out about the brutality and futility of George W Cretins lousy and unneccessary invasion of Iraq, and mothers of the dead troops are demanding that Cheney and Bush are brought to account for the lies and the deaths of their children
I'm not a Catholic, I'm a Lutheran; But there is no idol worship in the Catholic Church, because idol worship is against God's will.
I have gone to catholic schools. I know all about christinaity and bowing in front of cross. We call it idol worship. Good point. But I'll add that together with internal terror, they also live in fear of external terror from Israel. Why is his perception of Britain any more warped than the perception of the US that he is challenging in his original post? Or indeed, than the perceptions that are on this board every day? It certainly seems to have been a strategic mistake going for the big one, but who could have forecast the current price of oil? Britain is the "little Satan" apparently. Incidentally - where does Wales feature in the list of Satanic creatures? Hi Speed! Sorry for not coming back to your comments earlier, my day got busy… “I have mixed feelings about it Vina.” Yes. So do I, which is why I posted the question. There are so many possibilities and different scenarios, that I think we can only point at the most general and usual cases. So I think that that is why the Harrison Ford case is not applicable to most people. Certainly this is millionaire celebrity and given his financial status, as you said, he will not be confronted with the typical cases of not being able to pay babysitting for the not so pleasant tasks J, more time available for parenting, etc. ”Perhaps in some ways even a better parent as they would have years more wisdom and life experience to pass along, be more mature themselves than say a very young parent might be.” Yes that may be a positive thing, but also the bigger the generational gap the most difficult it may be to understand each other. ”So, I think that a given persons financial stability, emmotional readiness, maturity level and frame of time to actually spend with the child - particularly during the early developemental years, plays more of a significant role in what sort of parent they will make than does their age. ”Lets face it, its just like that Harry Chapin song "Cats in the Cradle"” I love that song…. “ by the time most kids are in their late teens and beyond, they dont spend all that much time with their parents anyway.:” True. This is however more than not the rule of life, but by the time children pass the teenage stage, get into adulthood and most of all, as they become parents themselves, then they will start “respecting” their parents again and begin to understand in retrospect why their parents acted the way they did…so parents now become the best friends, allies and advisers. This is the part that I see as downside when having children late in life… Now in the case of this woman in the article, she had twins. Speed, I can tell you how I was super-handful with one! So even as a young person, I was exhausted all the time! And the second baby came less than 2 years after (I know the same was for you)…so how this woman, who naturally wont have all the energy of a person in her 20s or 30s, will be able to cope with newborn twins!!!? Or she may turn out to do better than all of us! I don't believe you smicha, the UK government would never deal with bad people; we are all about freedom, democracy, peace and love. I saw that interview. U mean the same general who took every opportunity to distance himself from any blame. The same general who described the WMD's as big yellow drums with the skulls and bones sign on it. The same general who is currently working with the americans. The same general who has no proof of this. Heck, even the host said he has a hard time believing him. Hillarious show by the way. I didn't say there wouldn't be blood... if they want it, they'll get it. And nobody does War quite like the Euros. I'm just saying the Ruskies ARE comming, and it's all good for us. Next time it will be napalm. Oh Look... Here's something from that Zionist machine Al Jazeera. Could this be Jordan refusing to tighten laws protecting women from Honour Killing? english.aljazeera.ne... Surely this won't help get the message out to Jordanian men... Oh No... the Day after surely not english.aljazeera.ne... And what's this... Could this be the UK locking a father away for LIFE for enacting an Honour Killing? english.aljazeera.ne... Do you see a reason to not accept a reasonable critique in this issue? Cause I bloody don't, so stop acting like a Woman supressor lest they cross their legs against you for life!! ZERO TOLLERANCE!!! The Lebanon, there would be nothing standing, there would be hundreds of thousands dead. For those who are not Hama deniers, the Israelis are (comparatively by Middle East standards) probably the most restrained force in the area. If Lebanon was firing rockets at Syria or Egypt towns and cities would be levelled and to coin a well known phrase, be "wiped off the map" along with the populations, men, women and children. "Message posted by Vindication009 Im not sure why this is seen as newsworthy. Especially in light of the fact there is nothing new in that BBC link. Its the same ole, same ole." Indeed. We get this every year. It's like groundhog day. why are you using america aS A excuse for what muslims are doing world wide, does it some how make it any better,, there doing it so we can is that it.. I doubt any amount of post war planning would have prevented the insurgency. Its convenient to blame Rumsfeld and although he made mistakes I would lay the blame on the Sunnis and their Al Queda friends. I don't really blame the brits for their failure as I suspect the odds are the US will fail as well. I do find it annoying that some are not willing to accept any blame not attributable to americans. As Ripley said, "lets withdraw and nuke-em from orbit". Thats right in no way does anyone have a problem with any of america or israels actions - its merely our deep rooted bigotry and hatred ffs!